Archived Dangling a promotion as motivation?

[keynesian]

So, I've tried looking for a related thread on here and couldn't find one... anyways...

I've been with target a little over 4 years, and in my current role, overnight backroom, for about 3. I have almost always been the hardest worker in my workcenter - by a longshot. Anyway, about 6 months ago, we got a new ETL-LOG, and about 3 months ago he asked me if I had any leadership aspirations, I told him that I did. A couple of weeks went by and I asked him if we could follow up on that conversation - he proceeded to print out a chart that essentially looked over the very basic expectations about what is expected of a team lead, acknowledging your "opportunity" etc. A couple more weeks go by, and my TL approaches me saying that she'll basically let me run the backroom team on truck nights when she's not there or if she's needed on the floor.

After about a month of doing this, my development begins to stagnate - nothing is really discussed. I'm still expected to run the backroom, and make sure we have the major areas covered as they come back from the floor, run the truck-scanned backstock process and ensure the autofill times are beat. But nothing ever is discussed after this.

I should also say, that this amorphous "development" has been dangled in front of TMs before to get them to work really hard before at my store, only to turn around and they find out that there's no chance in hell they'll ever be a team lead.

Is it possible that they really want my team lead on the salesfloor to help run flow? and for me to lead the backroom as a TM permanently? Do target leaders lie about things like development to keep hard workers?

My issue is that another BRTM approached me saying that they had it from a "good source" that they were, in fact, not training me to be a team lead. Normally I would ignore this, but it had confirmed some slight suspicions I have had for some time. If this is true, how should I approach leadership about it? or should I not approach them at all?

 

[Sickofspot]

You can always follow up with your ETL, leaving out what the other team member told you of course. I hope this is not happening, but it wouldn't be the first time someone has been put through this.
I cannot tell you how many times a SRTL or ETL position had been my carrot. It gets old-fast. Honestly, the best way to get work out of someone is motivation. but this method is dirty.

 

[tgtguy]

I have seen this happen at my store several times. So, it does happen. If I was the Op, I would first go to my Etl and ask to follow up on your development and see what he/she says. Just remember to keep your eyes open and don't be naïve..Spot has a bad habit of promising people things and then tossing them aside when they are no longer needed.

 

[Redzee]

I have seen this happen at my store several times. So, it does happen. If I was the Op, I would first go to my Etl and ask to follow up on your development and see what he/she says. Just remember to keep your eyes open and don't be naïve..Spot has a bad habit of promising people things and then tossing them aside when they are no longer needed.

Yup happened to me. Blessing in disguise in the long run. Good luck though.

 

[Mhugh220]

Your ETL could have good intentions but is being blocked by more senior ETLs who want to promote their own TMs. They could be waiting for a TL position to open up on flow/BR. It's not always easy promoting a logistics TM to a TL position of another department. Usually they have the ETL of that department make the call and usually they already have someone in mind.

If after 2 months you haven't started the TL interviews to be on the bench then they aren't serious about moving you up just yet. They will abuse your wildness to lead as long as you let them, but it's also a double edged sword situation. Stop being a leader and they may start giving less hours or performancing you out.

I had TMs run the flow process but I was always clear about what was happening in the TL world. I can't replace TLs without justification so I have to wait for an opening. I can't force you into another TL position with the other ETLs approval.

But I was always clear on what openings were coming up and always put my TMs names in the hat.

 

[unknown]

Happens all the time. I always find it funny, and sad, when I watch tm's do tl work for no extra money.

I've had this happen to me. When my tl off or on vacation, the etl's and STL look to me to run the team. Sometimes I do it, sometimes I don't. I'm not looking to promote, so I have zero reason to help them, except out of the kindness of my heart as I watch them struggle.

The last time it happened, I actually had the sf-etl come and say something to me about "my team." My team? I just walked away.

So yeah, they'll use you as long as you let them. I'm not saying you won't get promoted. I'm no prophet. What I'm saying is that you have no guarantee that after all the extra work you do, there will be any payoff.

 

[commiecorvus]

At my store they had a Flow Captain, he was under the TL, kind of a Specialist position.
When the TL or ETL wasn't around folks would turn to him for answers (it also helped that he could translate for a lot of the ESL folks).
He was the most badass guy for throwing the truck, worked blackline like a crazy man and was a great trainer.
I think he got paid a buck or two extra for the job.

Do any of the stores have a position like that anymore?

They eventually made him a TL but it took a lot longer than it should have.

 

[Hardlinesmaster]

No flow captain at my store. Sorry.

 

[unknown]

At my store they had a Flow Captain, he was under the TL, kind of a Specialist position.
When the TL or ETL wasn't around folks would turn to him for answers (it also helped that he could translate for a lot of the ESL folks).
He was the most badass guy for throwing the truck, worked blackline like a crazy man and was a great trainer.
I think he got paid a buck or two extra for the job.

Do any of the stores have a position like that anymore?

They eventually made him a TL but it took a lot longer than it should have.

I need that raise! I wonder under what reason they gave him the raise?

 

[commiecorvus]

I need that raise! I wonder under what reason they gave him the raise?

Like I said I think they did it under the Specialist position.
I know those don't exist anymore though,

 

[whippingboy]

I've found over the past two years that the only team members that get promoted are the ones underneath the ETL who has her nose furthest up the STL's ass. The rest of us have been dangling for months, sometimes years.

Just sayin'.

 

[keynesian]

Your ETL could have good intentions but is being blocked by more senior ETLs who want to promote their own TMs. They could be waiting for a TL position to open up on flow/BR. It's not always easy promoting a logistics TM to a TL position of another department. Usually they have the ETL of that department make the call and usually they already have someone in mind.

If after 2 months you haven't started the TL interviews to be on the bench then they aren't serious about moving you up just yet. They will abuse your wildness to lead as long as you let them, but it's also a double edged sword situation. Stop being a leader and they may start giving less hours or performancing you out.

I had TMs run the flow process but I was always clear about what was happening in the TL world. I can't replace TLs without justification so I have to wait for an opening. I can't force you into another TL position with the other ETLs approval.

But I was always clear on what openings were coming up and always put my TMs names in the hat.

That's ultimately what I was afraid of. I wanted to stop it a little while ago, but my assumption was that they would just cut my hours or fire me if I said that I wanted to stop. It hasn't quite been two months, but basically what you're telling me is that I should have had some kind of an interview by now? also, I have never discussed this with my STL or ETL-HR (I never actually see them). Would it make sense to discuss it with them? or will they just lie to me?

Also, I'm wondering, would asking for a transfer at this point do me any good? or would it be too obvious that I was trying to avoid this situation? would they likely deny it outright or just make my life hell and term me before I can do anything about it?

 

[Mhugh220]

I would find out your ETLs intentions and ask for a plan. When are you expected to move towards TL interviews? What are his/her expectations? Etc. Also get feedback on how you're doing.

Or you could express your interest in becoming a TL to HR or the STL if you have an in with them. 4 years in, I would think you're ready to be developed/go to TL interviews. It's obvious who won't be TLs. Some just don't have the interest. If you're a rockstar and you're interested then it's obvious you should be a TL. Not saying being a rockstar equals leader but having the motivation and job knowledge are key characteristics.

 

[keynesian]

I would find out your ETLs intentions and ask for a plan. When are you expected to move towards TL interviews? What are his/her expectations? Etc. Also get feedback on how you're doing.

Or you could express your interest in becoming a TL to HR or the STL if you have an in with them. 4 years in, I would think you're ready to be developed/go to TL interviews. It's obvious who won't be TLs. Some just don't have the interest. If you're a rockstar and you're interested then it's obvious you should be a TL. Not saying being a rockstar equals leader but having the motivation and job knowledge are key characteristics.

When you say its obvious who won't be TLs - I am curious, because I have been in development, and do have a good deal of time in with the company - what are the most common fatal flaws for someone with my profile?

 

[signingminion]

When you say its obvious who won't be TLs - I am curious, because I have been in development, and do have a good deal of time in with the company - what are the most common fatal flaws for someone with my profile?

I think the fatal flaws vary from store to store based on the current leadership. We have a new tl who was turned down for gstl several times and aptl as well for failure to show ability to make decisions in his interview answers. He was given the least desirable tl slot in our store though because he was already working in that work center. We have a signing tm who had been told he's going to be developed after the dtl was impressed with his handling of the mannequin debacle. He's been turned down for aptl three times, not sure of the reason. Maybe they will find a similar undesirable slot, but I doubt it.

But what one set of stl/etl found to be a problem another overlooked if it behooved them. Neither has grown as a leader, so it was merely the view of them that was changed.

 

[Mhugh220]

Interview skills and attitude. Those can make or break you. You can be the best but have a poor attitude and all of your best qualities will be overlooked.

You've got to sip the kool-aide to some degree.

 

[keynesian]

Interview skills and attitude. Those can make or break you. You can be the best but have a poor attitude and all of your best qualities will be overlooked.

You've got to sip the kool-aide to some degree.

Ah yes I could totally see this. For most of my time with the company I've been one of the best workers, but working overnight there is NO pressure to drink the kool aid unless you're going for a promotion - we literally have less than 1 huddle a month. I usually have a decent attitude, but when higher ups want to make bad decisions I always try to steer them away from it, because it is typically someone like me who would have to fix their mistakes later on. (one time they wanted to move ALL of PLAS and BPLS into receiving... with no wacos...)

We have a large problem with bunrt batches in our store, and it is almost exclusively on dayside. I have gone into the system to look up when things were last pulled and informed my ETLs, TL, and the dayside ETL-OPS and SrTL-Br/InStocks of when it is happening. They're always very receptive of the information to my face, but I guess this is just seen as having a bad attitude or "troulemaking". Also the dayside team members will pull items from receiving, and leave them on the floor, never put them on a vehicle, or even let anybody know that the item was ever supposed to be push. Also, all of the heavy pipos (water, cat litter) are routinely faked out. I can pull out all of the water pipos every time we don't have a truck, and they will almost entirely go out, despite their last pull time being less than 6 hours ago.

Also they're using this new process called "4 by 4s" which basically means that the dayside TLs zone the store by taking random backstock off the shelves Technically they're supposed to update the aisles by getting them back to planogram compliance, but the effect of this is that they just pull off any items that aren't zone and send them to us, instead of checking to see if it will go back on the shelf anywhere. It is leading to all of our backroom aisles for non-commodities (HOME, HIPA, DOM, BEDS, BATH, PLUG, SPRT) filling up and overflowing into other aisles.

I realize for some work centers "drinking the kool aid" may be more of vague term about attitudes, etc. But I guess for my work center it means literally picking up all of the slack for dayside and keeping my mouth shut. I don't mind doing it if all it meant was that I would get a promotion, but it also means that, come BTS/4th qtr that our backroom will become unworkable, right at the same time as I'm taking it over - a perfect recipe for getting fired.

Also, when I said they probably want me to do the work for free, I wasn't trying to make a joke or anything, our org chart is technically 2 ETL-LOGs, 1 SrTL-Replenishment, 2 TL-Flow, we have just informally repurposed 1 flow tl to run the backroom. Also, my last raise put me close to $12/hr, which as I understand means I'm making more than a salesfloor TL they just promoted. The only thing I really have to gain from this promotion would be guaranteed hours and a slight raise. I suppose I would be willing to do it for "free" if they would just guarantee my hours.

 

[Retail Girl]

Ah yes I could totally see this. For most of my time with the company I've been one of the best workers, but working overnight there is NO pressure to drink the kool aid unless you're going for a promotion - we literally have less than 1 huddle a month. I usually have a decent attitude, but when higher ups want to make bad decisions I always try to steer them away from it, because it is typically someone like me who would have to fix their mistakes later on. (one time they wanted to move ALL of PLAS and BPLS into receiving... with no wacos...)

We have a large problem with bunrt batches in our store, and it is almost exclusively on dayside. I have gone into the system to look up when things were last pulled and informed my ETLs, TL, and the dayside ETL-OPS and SrTL-Br/InStocks of when it is happening. They're always very receptive of the information to my face, but I guess this is just seen as having a bad attitude or "troulemaking". Also the dayside team members will pull items from receiving, and leave them on the floor, never put them on a vehicle, or even let anybody know that the item was ever supposed to be push. Also, all of the heavy pipos (water, cat litter) are routinely faked out. I can pull out all of the water pipos every time we don't have a truck, and they will almost entirely go out, despite their last pull time being less than 6 hours ago.

Also they're using this new process called "4 by 4s" which basically means that the dayside TLs zone the store by taking random backstock off the shelves Technically they're supposed to update the aisles by getting them back to planogram compliance, but the effect of this is that they just pull off any items that aren't zone and send them to us, instead of checking to see if it will go back on the shelf anywhere. It is leading to all of our backroom aisles for non-commodities (HOME, HIPA, DOM, BEDS, BATH, PLUG, SPRT) filling up and overflowing into other aisles.

I realize for some work centers "drinking the kool aid" may be more of vague term about attitudes, etc. But I guess for my work center it means literally picking up all of the slack for dayside and keeping my mouth shut. I don't mind doing it if all it meant was that I would get a promotion, but it also means that, come BTS/4th qtr that our backroom will become unworkable, right at the same time as I'm taking it over - a perfect recipe for getting fired.

Also, when I said they probably want me to do the work for free, I wasn't trying to make a joke or anything, our org chart is technically 2 ETL-LOGs, 1 SrTL-Replenishment, 2 TL-Flow, we have just informally repurposed 1 flow tl to run the backroom. Also, my last raise put me close to $12/hr, which as I understand means I'm making more than a salesfloor TL they just promoted. The only thing I really have to gain from this promotion would be guaranteed hours and a slight raise. I suppose I would be willing to do it for "free" if they would just guarantee my hours.

Yep...I found out the hard way that while they may thank you for pointing out problems, in the end, they are simply thinking you have a bad attitude or think you are better than everyone else. So I've shut my mouth about everyone and everything and if I see something is a bad idea, I let it go until they figure it out on their own.

All of a sudden, I no longer have nearly all of the LODs ready to jump on me every time I walk into the building, nor are they any longer complaining to my TL about how horrible of a person I am. Sure, I have to fix stuff that other people constantly screw up, and I have to watch on the clock TMs stand at guest services for 45 minutes leaning against a wall while ignoring their own departments, but at least I have the LODs off my back again...and that is worth the cost of having to redo things that are constantly done wrong the first time through.

 

[Mhugh220]

I loved when TMs were engaged in the process. I didn't see it as a complaint because most of the time the suggestions were spot on. ON logistics is the ugly red headed step child of Target. They're expected to fix everything but get shit on if there isn't a strong Log running the show.

It's hard for Logistics TMs to get recognized. You aren't visible to the rest of the store so they can't see your performance first hand. You need an advocate.

First, your leaders need to get their shit straight. I went dayside for 2 weeks to unfuck dayside back room and the other Dayside teams. No longer were they going to shit on my department. Your ETL needs to lead this charge. I set my expectations, followed through, termed assholes who couldn't adapt, and boom - we got a clean back room turned over to us. ON is easy when dayside does their job. Same for dayside when ON comes clean.

I didn't require my own TMs or TLs to drink the red drink around me. We talked like peers rather than sniffing my hole. I also supported my teams decisions and took the fall on numerous occasions. Then I privately talked to the person on my team that was responsible so we could prevent a repeat.

Keep at it, stay engaged, and let your ETL know you want to be a TL and your timeframe to accomplish it. Also talk with HR. It may or may not help but why not?

 

[keynesian]

Yep...I found out the hard way that while they may thank you for pointing out problems, in the end, they are simply thinking you have a bad attitude or think you are better than everyone else. So I've shut my mouth about everyone and everything and if I see something is a bad idea, I let it go until they figure it out on their own.

All of a sudden, I no longer have nearly all of the LODs ready to jump on me every time I walk into the building, nor are they any longer complaining to my TL about how horrible of a person I am. Sure, I have to fix stuff that other people constantly screw up, and I have to watch on the clock TMs stand at guest services for 45 minutes leaning against a wall while ignoring their own departments, but at least I have the LODs off my back again...and that is worth the cost of having to redo things that are constantly done wrong the first time through.

I used to work for a similar retailer in my region. I worked dayside there. All of the TMs had plenty of time to commiserate, and I always kept my nose to the grind. On dayside, you need extra team members to be available to help guests, weather they have meaningful work to do or not is kind of irrelevant - you need bodies to staff the store. The whole "I see team members stand at guest service for 45 minutes" really brings me back. I remember a guy who would hide in the backroom texting his friends all day. Nothing was really ever done about it, especially since they were unionized.

Here's the BIG BIG BIG difference with overnight. We may have a truck that's 2400+ pieces, with backstock projected to take us until 8am to finish by target's own standards. If me and the rest of my team are scheduled 11pm-7am, we have until 7am to get everything done... regardless of what else is going on. If I'm given 40 hours of labor a night, and my truck/autofills regularly take 60, we're already more proficient by a factor of 3 to 2, asking my team to stretch it to a factor of 2 to 1 so that dayside backroom can completely can completely ignore their own responsibilities IS ASKING TOO MUCH. It wasn't asking too much when my team was filled with 20 something year old guys, fresh out of high school, full of piss and vinegar, but the economy has improved, and now half of my backroom team is over 45 years old. This kind of work is very difficult for older folks, running up and down ladders, lifting heavy boxes, throughout all hours of the night when we should be sleeping? Yeah, they won't be able to handle it.

I wish I could look the other way like the GSAs and GSTLs, and hardlines TLs who can stand around for half their day and get away with it. If I do that, there's half a truck sitting around not getting backstocked, its obvious. We can't pick up the extra slack, because thats how target wants it.

I loved when TMs were engaged in the process. I didn't see it as a complaint because most of the time the suggestions were spot on. ON logistics is the ugly red headed step child of Target. They're expected to fix everything but get shit on if there isn't a strong Log running the show.

It's hard for Logistics TMs to get recognized. You aren't visible to the rest of the store so they can't see your performance first hand. You need an advocate.

First, your leaders need to get their shit straight. I went dayside for 2 weeks to unfuck dayside back room and the other Dayside teams. No longer were they going to shit on my department. Your ETL needs to lead this charge. I set my expectations, followed through, termed assholes who couldn't adapt, and boom - we got a clean back room turned over to us. ON is easy when dayside does their job. Same for dayside when ON comes clean.

I didn't require my own TMs or TLs to drink the red drink around me. We talked like peers rather than sniffing my hole. I also supported my teams decisions and took the fall on numerous occasions. Then I privately talked to the person on my team that was responsible so we could prevent a repeat.

Keep at it, stay engaged, and let your ETL know you want to be a TL and your timeframe to accomplish it. Also talk with HR. It may or may not help but why not?

My ETL has tried to do this actually, and basically what he's found out is that the STL and ETL-OPS are completely willing to cover for their "favorite" leaders, even if their team is intentionally screwing up. They would pretend to fix the problem while he was standing in front of him, lie, and say all the right things, then go back to the status quo whenever they knew he wasn't working. He's worked shifts as rough as 6pm-noon before when he first got here... only to find that people have to be constantly policed to do their jobs right... from STL on down.

As much as I hate to say it, the reason I didn't ask for a promotion for my first three years with target was because of this culture of no accountability, and lying to get ahead at my store. Many of the promoted TLs were, effectively, informants and confidants to the ETLs right before getting promoted. They like to promote people within their first 6 months... to win over their unquestioning loyalty. Our SrTL-Replenishment skyrocketed from a seasonal cashier to a TL-hardlines within months... and for her first 6 months overnight, she would regularly send back autofills from the floor with more backstock thrown on top of them. and then try to blame the overnight backroom for burnt batches from the "backstock" she had sent back... and she was sent to nights not just with the OVERWHELMING blessing of the STL, but as the eyes and ears for her.

...

I guess this is what I have to lose by being honest and going forward to the ETL-HR about my situation: that she's in on it completely too. I could go in there saying one thing, and she could report me saying another with no other person to corroborate my story. Who looks more credible, the fresh faced 20 something ETL with a fresh perspective on the store? or the bitter TM being passed over for on a promotion? She could say I was badgering her for a promotion or something, and use it as justification for performancing me out.

Honestly, all I want is out of this situation without ruffling too many feathers, getting fired, or losing my position. I know how these people are... I only said yes to the training because three successive ETLs asked me over the course of a year... I was afraid if I kept saying no I'd lose my chance to say yes. And if I kept saying no, I'd be seen as "uncooperative" or "not a team player". If I can get out of this situation, but still have it on record that I tried to get promoted and it didn't go well, then I still look cooperative, hard working, but not ambitious... meaning nobody sees me as a threat, and nobody pays too close attention to what I'm doing. Its not ideal.. but it will keep me my job, hopefully my hours, and hopefully my head above water.

 

[Retail Girl]

Umm...wow...yeah...you are dreaming if you think that's how dayside runs. We do not have extra people standing around waiting to help guests. We barely have enough people on to get everything done, much less have anyone extra to help the guests.

And I'm one of those GSAs that you surmise are standing around doing nothing for half my shift. Yeah, sorry, out of the million things I do on any particular shift, "nothing" is not on that list.

But I get it, we can't all live up to the people on your team.

 

[thetargetman]

So, I've tried looking for a related thread on here and couldn't find one... anyways...

I've been with target a little over 4 years, and in my current role, overnight backroom, for about 3. I have almost always been the hardest worker in my workcenter - by a longshot. Anyway, about 6 months ago, we got a new ETL-LOG, and about 3 months ago he asked me if I had any leadership aspirations, I told him that I did. A couple of weeks went by and I asked him if we could follow up on that conversation - he proceeded to print out a chart that essentially looked over the very basic expectations about what is expected of a team lead, acknowledging your "opportunity" etc. A couple more weeks go by, and my TL approaches me saying that she'll basically let me run the backroom team on truck nights when she's not there or if she's needed on the floor.

After about a month of doing this, my development begins to stagnate - nothing is really discussed. I'm still expected to run the backroom, and make sure we have the major areas covered as they come back from the floor, run the truck-scanned backstock process and ensure the autofill times are beat. But nothing ever is discussed after this.

I should also say, that this amorphous "development" has been dangled in front of TMs before to get them to work really hard before at my store, only to turn around and they find out that there's no chance in hell they'll ever be a team lead.

Is it possible that they really want my team lead on the salesfloor to help run flow? and for me to lead the backroom as a TM permanently? Do target leaders lie about things like development to keep hard workers?

My issue is that another BRTM approached me saying that they had it from a "good source" that they were, in fact, not training me to be a team lead. Normally I would ignore this, but it had confirmed some slight suspicions I have had for some time. If this is true, how should I approach leadership about it? or should I not approach them at all?

I know this is almost a year old but yea I am more willing to bet they have no real intention of promoting you ( I hope I am wrong) and just have you run the Backroom as a TM so they wont have to pay you what a TL makes. Same thing basically happened to me. I expressed interest in promotion I kept taking on more responsibilities and I finally had to say to myself "They will NEVER promote me they want me to take on more responsibilities without the promotion.

 

[phibot]

I know this thread is cOLD, but I had a somewhat similar situation. I transferred stores a while back, and an ETL at my old store was going to have me set up an interview with a DTL, and have me start training for a TL spot while on the bench. I ended up having to transfer, but my recommendation went with me. At this new store, I've told this story no less than 4 times to different ETLs/the STL, and they've all given me the run around saying "we'll wait until after the holidays" and such. Three of them have since left the store, saying "I'm obviously not able to really help with this, but I'll pass the message along to TL x," again several times

I approach TL x and they always give me this dumbfounded look, as clearly this is the first time they've heard of me even working at their store, much less having this ever diminishing recommendation follow me.

 

[Hardlinesmaster]

Did you apply on ehr? Some stores require it.

 

[cmat21]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha...

*cough* excuse me, I just got caught up in the proposition that this anything other than the sinister carrot dangler.

Forgive me those of you TLs who are here, because there are a few good ones out there, but in general Target leadership is shit. Its almost expected of them to do any and everything possible to keep team members and working their hardest. That includes the almost sin worthy deed of carrot dangling. There gave probably been thousands of TMs who have had all kinds of extra expectations and promotional talk done just in the name of taking the strain off of an increasingly limited payroll