MODERATED General Politics Thread II

commiecorvus

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From bombing Black Wall Street

Black Wall Street Bombing - Race Riot

to the systematic poisoning of oil rich Osage Tribes People

In The 1920s, A Community Conspired To Kill Native Americans For Their Oil Money

To the Zoot Suit Riots

Zoot Suit Riots - Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoot_Suit_Riots

and lynchings, of which there were thousands and the last one was in 1981

Lynching of Michael Donald



Every time I here white people say POC are complaining about things that happened a 'long' time ago and they need to stop whinging it is clear they either don't know or don't care about history.
They will flat out lie about it (holocaust deniers can just die) or claim ignorance which is entirely their own fault.
 
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HardlinesFour

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You know @commiecorvus, maybe I'm just the most naive person alive... but deep down, I truly believe that a decent portion of claims of racism are actually fairly exaggerated, or misinterpreted. We live in 2019, not 1929. I'd say well over 87% of people have evolved so much, and have really become very comfortable with a lot of stances, including the LGBT Community.

Maybe I'm just wrong. But, deep down, I truly believe that most people are not racist, or homophobic. I think there has been an intentional polarization from journalists out for money, but at the end of the day, I do ask... do you see a lot of incidents in your life? I truly try to see the best in people, but I also believe that I do a good job at seeing the worst in people as well.

You can rebuke me. You can tell me I'm part of the problem. You can say whatever. But my question for you is -- do you really see racism in your life? And are you sure?
 

can't touch this

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The Left has to insist that a plurality or majority of white people are at least low-key if not overtly racist for the same reason they have to pretend like a Victorian WASP patriarchy still exists in the USA in 2019. Leftism started out as a revolutionary ideology that was outnumbered 1:100 by the old culture when it got started, but they emerged from the culture war as the victors and evolved into the new bourgeoisie as all successful revolutionaries do. The problem is, you can't very well dis the 1% if you are the 1%, at least not without some folks noticing. So if your attention is misdirected to worrying about some GOP porker making your girlfriend wear a red robe and bonnet, perhaps you won't notice the money<->power hijinks and selling out to global Capital. Hell they even managed to bamboozle a lot of libs into supporting neocolonialism

Think I've pointed this out before but if this alleged Aryan Brotherhood thing we honkies have going when nobody's around is real and it's as pervasive and popular as the libs say then we'd be living in a completely different historical timeline here. There would be an openly racist and Holocaust-denying right wing party that wins local and national elections regularly. Trump wouldn't stand out from anybody else they'd nominate.

The truth is that almost all white people don't really have any sense of a collective "white" identity, and when they do it's usually tenuous at best. The 4chan memes about "56% white" is a parody of white Americans who have a muddled and mysterious ancestry that they know very little, if anything about. "My ancestors came here on the Mayflower" and "I have reddish hair so I must be part Irish"...yikes. Whites are stratified by class and political affiliation rather than being united by race. Any unity we once had is long gone, I myself have never seen it in real life.
 

oath2order

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From bombing Black Wall Street

Black Wall Street Bombing - Race Riot

to the systematic poisoning of oil rich Osage Tribes People

In The 1920s, A Community Conspired To Kill Native Americans For Their Oil Money

To the Zoot Suit Riots

Zoot Suit Riots - Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoot_Suit_Riots

and lynchings, of which there were thousands and the last one was in 1981

Lynching of Michael Donald



Every time I here white people say POC are complaining about things that happened a 'long' time ago and they need to stop whinging it is clear they either don't know or don't care about history.
They will flat out lie about it (holocaust deniers can just die) or claim ignorance which is entirely their own fault.
Only one of your examples is semi contemporary lmao and even that's in the 80s
 

commiecorvus

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Only one of your examples is semi contemporary lmao and even that's in the 80s
And you just made my point.

There are still people who are alive who at these events, who were directly effected by them.
They are not ancient history.
And every one of them have an effect on how how life is now.

Why aren't black communities doing as well as white?
One reason is there isn't nearly as much inherited wealth in the black communities which clear socioeconomic effects on everything from education to homes.
Same applies to the First Nation tribes.
The first two events I mentioned, are clear lines to that issue.
 

commiecorvus

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You know @commiecorvus, maybe I'm just the most naive person alive... but deep down, I truly believe that a decent portion of claims of racism are actually fairly exaggerated, or misinterpreted. We live in 2019, not 1929. I'd say well over 87% of people have evolved so much, and have really become very comfortable with a lot of stances, including the LGBT Community.

Maybe I'm just wrong. But, deep down, I truly believe that most people are not racist, or homophobic. I think there has been an intentional polarization from journalists out for money, but at the end of the day, I do ask... do you see a lot of incidents in your life? I truly try to see the best in people, but I also believe that I do a good job at seeing the worst in people as well.

You can rebuke me. You can tell me I'm part of the problem. You can say whatever. But my question for you is -- do you really see racism in your life? And are you sure?

I'm a white, middle class male.
Of course I don't see a lot of racism.

I do see a shit load of ablism but that's because I work with people with disabilities and have one myself.
I won't even use the fact that I have a disability to try to compare that to the problems POC have.

I do have a lot of friends who are First Nation, POC, etc.
Every one of them could tell you about the microaggressions or the straight up racism they face every damned day.
From being trailed in stores by security when they make more than most of the people in the store, to having a car full of kids scream the N word at them then throw a box of half eaten McDonalds, this is their fucking life.

I'm glad you don't see much of that kind of shit.
I don't think all white people are racist.
In fact I think most are decent caring people.
It just takes a handful to make it shitty for everybody.
But right now, that handful seems to be bolder and more ready to hurt people.
 

commiecorvus

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Oh, yeah on the discrimination thing.
Being Jewish leads to some interesting moments too.
Like everyone getting Christmas off but I have to use vacation to take my holidays.
Of course, every other religion that isn't Christian has to do that as well.

I would say that only my Muslim friends get as much kicking around in comment sections and on YouTube.
Antisemitism is has been going strong for a thousand years and doesn't show any sign of slowing down.

 

HardlinesFour

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Why aren't black communities doing as well as white?
One reason is there isn't nearly as much inherited wealth in the black communities which clear socioeconomic effects on everything from education to homes.
Inherited wealth mostly comes from homeownership. In fact, according to a study from Housing & Urban Development 60% of the average homeowners' wealth is from their home's equity. The biggest problem is... despite numerous and extensive attempts by our government, less than half - of all African American households own homes. This is not a problem of lack of lending by banks or discriminating loan officers, as I can personally attest as a mortgage banker with Chase -- I get paid a commission for every home loan I get submitted and funded. I certainly am not going to turn down an opportunity to make a commission because of the color of someone's skin.

I think and have always believed it has to do with the mindset of the community itself. We have now and have had Zero Down, 103% (to cover closing costs), even 125% Home loans for a long time. A large portion decides to rent instead of owning a home, and that is why the average wealth is so damn skewed between White & African American families. Not only that...

But in addition we also have to take into account, that Renter communities typically and generally have lower property values, and as such, have far lower property taxes. This means much less money pours into the coffers of the local school district. This is not some evil Joe Smoe who's sought out to discriminately fund less money towards a black district. It has more to do with the values of properties in those areas. Less money means lower salaries for teachers, which means lower quality talent most of the time, and less money for resources like textbooks, computers, etc.

From being trailed in stores by security when they make more than most of the people in the store, to having a car full of kids scream the N word at them then throw a box of half eaten McDonalds, this is their fucking life.
I also want to point out -- that we live in a time where if someone bothers to make a phone call to the Corporate Office, that security guard will be coached and potentially terminated from his position for profiling a customer. I've seen what these complaints will do first hand, even at times of no merit. In the second case you mention, if that was tried here, and someone got the license plate -- the DA's office would attempt to pursue it as a Hate Crime, and rightfully so. But I have to imagine other states wouldn't be so lenient about it either.
 

HardlinesFour

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I'm glad you don't see much of that kind of shit.
I don't think all white people are racist.
In fact I think most are decent caring people.
It just takes a handful to make it shitty for everybody.
But right now, that handful seems to be bolder and more ready to hurt people.
I just feel like when racial relations are discussed, we are talking about a very, very small portion of the population that are just assholes. I personally believe the number is about 6% or so. I truly would like to think in this day and age, that most people have evolved and we are far better off than we were 20 or 30 years ago. Although, if I only read the headlines on CNN & Yahoo.com, I'd be led to believe that we are days away from a civil war. There has been so much effort into polarizing this country by both parties.
 

commiecorvus

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My daughter is the assistant manager at a Credit Union.
Part of her training when she was in charge of the loan department was about the history of redlining and how 'black neighborhoods' were created.
There are laws against it now but in the bad old days it was common for banks to only give loans to POC in certain areas of town.
Which meant that their kids are inheriting homes worth less then what the other kids are.
We have a planned neighborhood in Anchorage where there was lawsuit when I was kid because it turned out they weren't selling to POC.
I know that has been an issue in the gated communities in NJ.
 

REDcardJJ

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i'm black.

all i want to say is that i get followed around stores constantly. i've been accused of stealing from convenience stores (plural), given dirty looks when i walk down the street, and even followed around a fucking Target. this shit is real to us. do you know what it's like to walk into a room and immediately feel out of place? because that's basically the story of my life.

there are legitimate issues that need to be addressed in American society. and if not overt racism, extreme prejudice is very common towards the black community.

just my opinion.
 

redeye58

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Even living in a liberal bastion as I do I've had the occasional guest ask ME to make their drink when the other barista was a POC/gay/Hispanic TM.
It's subtle - speaking quietly with a sideways glance.
So is my response when I decaf them.
@HardlinesFour - you're fortunate to live in a colorblind area.
 

Aredhel

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First
And you just made my point.

There are still people who are alive who at these events, who were directly effected by them.
They are not ancient history.
And every one of them have an effect on how how life is now.

Why aren't black communities doing as well as white?
One reason is there isn't nearly as much inherited wealth in the black communities which clear socioeconomic effects on everything from education to homes.
Same applies to the First Nation tribes.
The first two events I mentioned, are clear lines to that issue.
First Nation tribes got a raw deal. And another. But they have very serious internal cultural issues that put them in difficult and dreadful places when dealing with the world at large. I’m not a sociologist I can’t solve it all. But I have seen self destructive behaviors. Behaviors that others of all colors will exploit.
 
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HardlinesFour

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My daughter is the assistant manager at a Credit Union.
Part of her training when she was in charge of the loan department was about the history of redlining and how 'black neighborhoods' were created.
There are laws against it now but in the bad old days it was common for banks to only give loans to POC in certain areas of town.
Which meant that their kids are inheriting homes worth less then what the other kids are.
We have a planned neighborhood in Anchorage where there was lawsuit when I was kid because it turned out they weren't selling to POC.
I know that has been an issue in the gated communities in NJ.
My point is - I think for the last 40-45 years, we've had the exact opposite, and I feel like I can completely say we evolved from those days. Our Federal Government helped foster and develop a huge secondary market for investors and created confidence in home loans for banks. Even better, for a good little while, we dove into the extreme and evolved to the point where money was literally chasing the homebuyers and homeowners.

One of the most extreme examples I heard was a story about a housekeeper in Miami Gardens that managed to finance a home purchase of almost $600k after being encouraged by a friend who was the realtor. Despite having an income of $19k a year I think in almost entirely undocumented earnings, Washington Mutual gave her the loan anyway, and her sister moved in. Together, they managed to make almost a complete year of mortgage payments, before they were late on their first payment. The total payments were close to $5,500 a month for both loans with taxes. But was what was even more interesting, were the photos from the home appraisal. Both of them were sleeping on an AIR BED, and the home was almost entirely unfurnished.

Even with their current mortgage being delinquent at closing, a division of Wells Fargo decided she was a "Prime" Borrower and funded a Cash out Refinance. I later decided to type in their name into the Civil Court website and discovered they had been sued by the Wells Fargo for foreclosure, not even a full year later.

Even living in a liberal bastion as I do I've had the occasional guest ask ME to make their drink when the other barista was a POC/gay/Hispanic TM.
It's subtle - speaking quietly with a sideways glance.
So is my response when I decaf them.
@HardlinesFour - you're fortunate to live in a colorblind area.
I may very well be living in a colorblind area. But at the same time, I truly feel like the extent of the assholes out there is way over dramatized. There is no possible way, 10 or 20% of our entire population is stuck in these old mindsets. I even feel like I can confidently say, that within the next two generations, this won't even be a problem at all. We have evolved so much.
 

commiecorvus

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Interesting piece on reverse redlining, something that led to the housing bubble and the crash under Bush. Basically subprime lending did a lot to destroy the people who did own homes and many old people were conned into buying reverse mortgages.

Mortgage Industry Bankrupts Black America


"Reverse redlining occurs when a lender or insurer particularly targets minority consumers, not to deny them loans or insurance, but to charge them more than would be charged to a similarly situated white consumer, specifically marketing the most expensive and onerous loan products.
These communities had largely been ignored by most lenders just a couple of decades earlier. In the 2000's some financial institutions considered black communities as suitable for subprime mortgages.
Wells Fargo partnered with churches in black communities, where the pastor would deliver "wealth building" seminars in their sermons, and the bank would make a donation to the church in return for every new mortgage application.
Working-class blacks wanted a part of the nation's home-owning trend. Instead of contributing to home-ownership and community progress, predatory lending practices through reverse redlining stripped the equity homeowners struggled to build and drained the wealth of those communities for the enrichment of financial firms.
The growth of subprime lending (higher cost loans to borrowers with flaws on their credit records) prior to the 2008 financial crisis, coupled with growing law enforcement activity in those areas, clearly showed a surge in a range of manipulative practices. Not all subprime loans were predatory, but virtually all predatory loans were subprime.
Some subprime loans certainly benefit high-risk borrowers who would not qualify for conventional, prime loans.
Predatory loans, however, charge unreasonably higher rates and fees by compared to the risk, trapping homeowners in unaffordable debt and often costing them their homes and life savings."

"That’s particularly true in established black neighborhoods like Westwood, where banks and brokers targeted vulnerable longtime homeowners and lured them into needless and rapidly recurring mortgages they clearly couldn’t afford and from which they never stood to gain. More than half of all refinance loans made to African-Americans in 2006 were subprime... That’s nearly twice the rate among white borrowers. Among low-income black borrowers, 62 percent of refinance loans were subprime, more than twice the rate among low-income whites."

"Nearly 18,000 homes faced foreclosure in the Atlanta area during the first quarter of 2008, an almost 40 percent jump from the first quarter of 2007. In Fulton County, which encompasses most of the city’s core and is heavily African-American, one in 122 homes was in foreclosure in the first week of April. A digest of Atlanta’s March 2008 “foreclosure starts” was as thick as the phone book, and the Mitchells’ 30310 ZIP code topped the list."
 

HardlinesFour

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Commie, without trying to write a huge post, I'll try to explain things as best I can. There was some stuff that was outright predatory, but most things the news media has stigmatized really wasn't.

Back then... in 2005/2006, if a homebuyer came in, and had a 20% down payment, fully documented income, and great credit -- what would usually happen is, when you would send the file to a "wholesale" or broker division of a lender, the pricing would come back to a point where it was only One/Eighth or a Quarter of a Percent More for the loan to be a Stated Income loan than to send the loan through with all the paperwork fully documented and in order. By doing this, underwriting would hand back a decision much faster, the broker could work on more loan files, and the buyer generally was happy with the closing progressing faster and not being asked a lot/any questions.

I can tell you, millions, and millions of people probably received loans with No Paperwork, or Stated Income, even though they fully qualified and didn't need such a damn thing. It was just easier for brokers to pass through loan files, and stay on top.
Was it predatory to do this? I don't fully think so. Some lenders priced their ARM packages so competitively, that even someone with 5% down, didn't need to really show anything at all for the same rate as someone putting down 10% and showing years of employment.

Here is where things get a little nasty.

I knew a guy who joined our branch, from an Ameriquest office. They basically led an outright boiler room operation and the company mentality was to screw over anybody who called in or responded to a solicitation for a loan. The loans Ameriquest would issue, were typically 2 Year Adjustable Rates, with a Prepayment Penalty if you sold the home or refinanced before the two years were up, and... they would pack in a ridiculous amount of completely unnecessary points & closing costs that mostly went into the Loan Agents pocket.

In the industry, we called these "Band-Aid" loans. The idea was, the borrower would pay off all their collections, get current on everything, and when the two years were up, they'd refinance into a conventional loan with a far better rate.

These loans were designed to be refinanced, and not kept. You were supposed to refinance after the two years or three years. That's when the rate would adjust to a higher cost loan. But... at the same time, these loans had very forgiving requirements. It didn't matter if the borrower had decided to not pay any of their credit cards for several months, had multiple collections, a judgment or two, a repossession, or they were behind in current mortgage payments. The loans were almost entirely refinance transcations (not home purchases) and were provided with the understanding that there was equity in the home.

Many people who had responded and received these loans, had applied at Traditional banks like Bank of America, or Chase, or even their local credit union. And they had been turned down for loans because their credit was trashed. They had no other choices. So... when offered a loan of any type, a lot of people didn't care really what their Interest Rate was, or what the terms were.

Here's where I disagree with the claims of predatory. These same borrowers were handed off paperwork called a Truth in Lending Statement, HUD-1, and generally, also provided documents that talked about how their Adjustable Rate Loan would work, and how it would potentially reset. Most of these people, *DID* actually know what their monthly payments would be before they took out the loan, and what it would be, two years, three years, or five years down the road. Many of them didn't truly care either, how the loan was set up. They just wanted the cash straight out of their homes. So what if the rate was 8.5% or 9.50% instead of 6%. These same borrowers can't qualify at 6% for a traditional fixed rate, and most certainly didn't fall into the 7% range for an exotic product. That borrower is going to be just happy with their 8.5% or 9% interest loan. In my mind... I actually believe the products were quite generous. Almost all the loans I saw that were Subprime, were about 1.5% to 2.5% more than a Conventional Rate. I, personally, thought they were well underpriced for the risk the lenders were actually taking and wondered why they were not more expensive.

Certain people did qualify for better loans. That is true. Some people were priced into more expensive loans than they would have otherwise qualified for. But, generally, almost everyone received very fair terms, unless they had insane circumstances or a very low loan amount ($30k) on a 90% LTV transaction. Lenders priced those loans so high, because of the insane losses caused by them in foreclosure sales.

One thing I would also like to point out to you - is the HMDA (Home Mortgage Disclosure Act) that provides insight into borrower applications, and is referenced a lot by articles like yours... doesn't incorporate things like FICO Scores & Borrower savings/reserves on hand. Those things really skew the rate someone is going to qualify for, and what kind of loan they receive. So, the picture it paints is a very confusing one, IMO.
 

HardlinesFour

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Interesting piece on reverse redlining, something that led to the housing bubble and the crash under Bush. Basically subprime lending did a lot to destroy the people who did own homes and many old people were conned into buying reverse mortgages.
Also - Reverse Mortgages in over 99% of cases, are loan programs managed and funded by the Federal Housing Administration, through HUD. I don't personally care for/like the programs, but for many seniors, living on a fixed income, it's either a reverse mortgage or being forced to sell there home.
 

HardlinesFour

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From the Article

"
It starts with a $68,000 loan in May 2003–that’s the one they made for the new siding. By that December, they’d already refinanced for $100,000. In December 2006, there’s another loan, with now-defunct NovaStar Mortgage, for just over $116,000. Two months later there’s a package of two more loans, totaling about $125,000 and owed to California-based IndyMac Bank. The IndyMac loan package is a classic subprime product–interest-only payments for five years, at a fixed rate of just over 6 percent, then adjusting upward to about 9 percent plus the principal.

“That is just not an appropriate loan product for someone who’s 76 years old and who’s on a fixed income,” says Atlanta Legal Aid Society attorney Sarah Bolling, who’s representing the Mitchells in their effort to keep their house. “The only calculation that would make this make sense is to say, ‘Well, we’ll give him a low rate and in five years he won’t be alive.’ But that’s pretty cynical.” Not that it mattered: George managed to pay the loan for only two months before falling behind. Within a year, he was in default."

NovaStar was a classic, nasty Subprime Lender probably as bad as Ameriquest. With that said... the Indymac loan was most certainly an Alt-A or Alternative-A Mortgage... that was all they did. That was a type of prime loan that was very well priced, and most certainly wasn't subprime. I obviously can't see the closing costs they paid, but, by the terms mentioned in the article, he did receive a good loan. In a normal market, that loan would have been easily refinanced before the 5-YR Fixed Period expired.

With that said - I have a problem though, with a borrower who knows their monthly income is $3,000 a month per se and thinks it's okay to take out a loan that is $2,800 of their income. At some point, they do have to take responsibility. In this case, he decided to take out even more money than he should have and didn't care about the future consequences. Indymac ended up with a loan that fell into EPD or Early Payment Default, blacklisted the broker who wrote it and probably took a huge loss on it.
 

can't touch this

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Even living in a liberal bastion as I do I've had the occasional guest ask ME to make their drink when the other barista was a POC/gay/Hispanic TM.
It's subtle - speaking quietly with a sideways glance.
So is my response when I decaf them.
@HardlinesFour - you're fortunate to live in a colorblind area.
There are quite a few affluent libs out there who will fork over big bucks to live in gated communities far away from any POC, where they spend their time bitching on the Internet about the racism of flyover trash. Or bitching about police departments being crypto-white nationalist fraternities, while making sure to live in places where there are as many squad cars as possible. The plausible deniability of gentrification is the coastal white/Jewish lib's best friend!
 
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