Lord of the Rings appreciation thread

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I read a decent fan rewrite that would have made Dany's action make much more sense. Most of the story beats are the same with a few key differences:

1. Dragon #2 doesn't die in episode 4. Dany sees Iron Fleet before they start shooting and begins to maneuver out of the way. Since Dragon #2 is wounded from Winterfell, he doesn't quite dodge the arrows and takes one through the wing but manages to escape.
2. Rest of episode 4 and first part of episode 5 go the same as the show has. Miss Sunday gets captured and killed. Varys betrays Dany and dies. Siege of King's Landing begins as shown. Iron Fleet and KL defenses get owned.
3. Euron doesn't come across Jaime on the beach. Instead, he runs through King's Landing to 1 remaining ballista that was hidden in a cart like the one in the Loot Train in Season 7.
4. King's Landing sounds the surrender, Dany lands on the walls with her dragons. Facial expressions during that scene remain the same. She's still feeling the battle fury but the surrender is happening.
5. Suddenly, a bolt strikes dragon #2 through the neck, blood splatters all over her and Dragon #1.
6. Civilians in King's Landing begin cheering.
7. Dany realizes that despite all her attempts to only strike military targets and minimize collateral damage, she's still seen as the invader.
8. /cue Trogdor the Burninator.

Still get Mad Queen but in a way that doesn't completely destroy her entire character arc.
 
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They went the way of the Mountain and the Hound. No seeing them again!
Ah, but I don't count them out either. The Mountain was already dead - can't kill him any more. The Hound may be brought back by the God of Light. We don't really know...yet.
 

JagStar

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I read a decent fan rewrite that would have made Dany's action make much more sense. Most of the story beats are the same with a few key differences:

1. Dragon #2 doesn't die in episode 4. Dany sees Iron Fleet before they start shooting and begins to maneuver out of the way. Since Dragon #2 is wounded from Winterfell, he doesn't quite dodge the arrows and takes one through the wing but manages to escape.
2. Rest of episode 4 and first part of episode 5 go the same as the show has. Miss Sunday gets captured and killed. Varys betrays Dany and dies. Siege of King's Landing begins as shown. Iron Fleet and KL defenses get owned.
3. Euron doesn't come across Jaime on the beach. Instead, he runs through King's Landing to 1 remaining ballista that was hidden in a cart like the one in the Loot Train in Season 7.
4. King's Landing sounds the surrender, Dany lands on the walls with her dragons. Facial expressions during that scene remain the same. She's still feeling the battle fury but the surrender is happening.
5. Suddenly, a bolt strikes dragon #2 through the neck, blood splatters all over her and Dragon #1.
6. Civilians in King's Landing begin cheering.
7. Dany realizes that despite all her attempts to only strike military targets and minimize collateral damage, she's still seen as the invader.
8. /cue Trogdor the Burninator.

Still get Mad Queen but in a way that doesn't completely destroy her entire character arc.
I thought about this myself, but the fact of the matter is they wanted to kill Rhaegal without Jon Snow being on it and/or being physically unable to stop Danaerys from burning down the city.

Other problem is Danaerys is not mad. She is behaving out of rage and anger that is completely rational, not madness. Jon as Aegon now that everyone knows has Usurped what she considers to be her destiny. The people do not stand behind her. She feels very much alone and as if someone should be punished for this. She feels her only chance to rule now is to make that claim through brute force and fear in Westeros. This was not madness. It was an offshoot of what we have seen from the beginning.

Danaerys has gotten by on being a revolutionary for oppressed people. She needed her advisors to keep the rage parts of her in check. Now all of her closest advisors are gone and she can't trust Tyrion. As with a lot of revolutionary figures historically, the oppressed can become the opressor and thats what Danaerys has become. Always what she was meant to become.
 

seasonaldude

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I think Martin's original idea was to subvert the typical fantasy storyline that the great person defeats the evil tyrant and everything is going to be great after that. The End. Dany was always supposed to turn bad because the feudal system is built on force and anyone who thinks they have a natural right to rule over everyone else absolutely has to resort to tyranny no matter how good their initial intentions might have been.

Martin apparently can't figure out how to make that turn work though, hence no books. The show writers working from his outline have done a particularly poor job with it. They've just pissed everyone off who thought they were watching a normal show and that Dany was supposed to be one of the good guys. Unfortunately for them, Martin has repeatedly said the series doesn't really have a good side versus a bad side. It's not that simple because reality isn't that simple.
 
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Other problem is Danaerys is not mad. She is behaving out of rage and anger that is completely rational, not madness.
Going from the one that chained her dragons over a single burnt child to being literally the most brutal Targaryen in history and very little development between the two is not rational.

Jon as Aegon now that everyone knows has Usurped what she considers to be her destiny.
"Accidentally" kill Jon during siege. Problem solved.

The people do not stand behind her. She feels very much alone and as if someone should be punished for this.
And using the reddit rewrite I summarized in my last post would have perfectly set that up.

She feels her only chance to rule now is to make that claim through brute force and fear in Westeros.
Her dragon single-handedly destroyed the fleet and siege defenses of King's Landing and her army annihilated the ground forces. She already had the brute force and fear to make the claim.

For all the talk from Tyrion, Varys, and Davos about having Jon marry Dany to solidify the alliance between Dany and the North, they didn't mention to either of them a single time. Rationality would have dictated that at least Dany would have been informed of the idea and someone bring it up to Jon; maybe even appeal to his sense of honor by telling him that the arrangement would be for the good of the realm. It's been shown that he will go against his vows when it's necessary (nailing Ygritte, allowing the Wildlings past the wall, surrendering his Kingship).

Hell, him saying no to that proposal would have solidified Dany's sense of isolation more than "sorry, won't bang you anymore Auntie".

This was not madness. It was an offshoot of what we have seen from the beginning.
Have we seen the same Dany? The Dany they have shown since the beginning:
1. Stopped the Dothraki from raping the middle of a raid and demanded they be taken as wives.
2. Gave explicit orders to not harm innocents when she took Astapor.
3. Took a strategically unimportant city against Jorah's advice purely to save the oppressed.
4. Demanded to see the crucified children prior to burial and only targeted the slave masters for punishment (yes, some collateral damage).
5. Stayed in conquered city for years when she didn't need to to ensure slavery didn't return.
6. Chained her dragons because a single child was burned by one and she didn't want any more innocent deaths.
7. Allowed the fighting pits to reopen despite her personal objections purely to earn some political points with the people.
8. Only targeted the invading forces when the other slave cities tried to retake Meereen.
9. Only hit military targets during her early campaign in Westeros.
10. Allowed surrendering forces the opportunity to bend the knee and accept her rule.
11. Abandoned the campaign as soon as she saw the Northern threat.
12. Brokered a truce with the Crown even though she knew it would allow Cersei to regroup. Remember, they didn't originally expect Cersei to be sending troops. The deal they proposed was to stop the war while Dany's forces went to Winterfell. Cersei "promising" to send the Lannister forces was a last minute bonus.

Danaerys has gotten by on being a revolutionary for oppressed people. She needed her advisors to keep the rage parts of her in check.
All of her rage up to this point has been specifically aimed at her enemies. She has always gone out of her way to avoid collateral damage as much as possible and never needed advisors to tell her that. Even when she killed the Tarlys, she still gave them multiple chances to bend the knee first.

If there had been any hints like "I will scour Meereen until the Sons of the Harpy are gone" with Barristan saying "Yo, you shouldn't do that.", I would more inclined to believe it. But there was almost nothing like that. The closest we have is Barristan convincing her to give a dude a trial before execution and Tyrion trying to talk her out of executing the Tarlys.
 

TTGOz

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Based off these last few episodes, I was a little disappointed that the entire series build up to the Battle of Winterfell ended so abruptly. I was hoping to see some legitimate death and destruction across an episode or two, seen more main characters die off. It just felt so anti-climatic. The Bells was a little confusing to me, but if we're thinking of the big grand scheme of things it makes sense. I didn't really appreciate the way Cersei went out, was hoping Dany took the city after the surrender and had the Unsullied storm the Red Keep and have Dany or Drogon execute her.. or something. I'm not too into GoT conspiracies and theories and haven't read up on much of them but I guess that's just what I was hoping to see.

My girlfriend's pretty pissed Dany decided to not respect the surrender and burn the city while rogue members of the army went on and started killing the civilians, attempting to rape some of the women. I appreciated that Jon at least tried to stop it and ended up killing one of his own men to save a woman. If I had to theorize what I would like to see in the next episode is a grand "What the fuck, Dany?" from Jon and realize maybe she's not the Queen for him and decides to pave the way towards him being on the Throne despite not wanting it or acknowledging his claim. It'd be easy to get behind the people but Dany and the loyal Unsullied would probably present a formidable opposition. Maybe we'll find Dany has come out of her rage and realizes just what she's done.

I guess we will see.
 
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I was ok with Jaime and Cersei's death. BUT, Brienne should have died in the Battle of Winterfell. Her character arc was satisfied and it would have better explained Jaime's desire to try to save Cersei. It would have been far more satisfying than "I killed the Mad King because I wouldn't stand by and watch him kill thousands of innocent people" to "TBH, I never really cared about the innocents."

I guess we will see.
The same person that posted the spoilers on reddit that turned out to be 95% true also spoiled some major plot points for the finale. If they are accurate, it's pretty fucking stupid.
 

JagStar

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Going from the one that chained her dragons over a single burnt child to being literally the most brutal Targaryen in history and very little development between the two is not rational.
She isn't the most brutal Targaryen in history. Not even close. Aegon the Conqueror burnt down half of Dorne when his sister wife Rhaenys was killed. Before that, his dragon melted down Harrenhal when the Ironborn refused to surrender. Maegor the Cruel has earned his rep for a reason. The Dance of Dragons. You remember that? It was the Targaryens in-fighting each other in brutal ways to ensure their claim to the throne was honored.


"Accidentally" kill Jon during siege. Problem solved.
I believe she tried. Little bit difficult to do that 100% effectively from dragonback while he's in the middle of that rat maze of a city.


Her dragon single-handedly destroyed the fleet and siege defenses of King's Landing and her army annihilated the ground forces. She already had the brute force and fear to make the claim.

For all the talk from Tyrion, Varys, and Davos about having Jon marry Dany to solidify the alliance between Dany and the North, they didn't mention to either of them a single time. Rationality would have dictated that at least Dany would have been informed of the idea and someone bring it up to Jon; maybe even appeal to his sense of honor by telling him that the arrangement would be for the good of the realm. It's been shown that he will go against his vows when it's necessary (nailing Ygritte, allowing the Wildlings past the wall, surrendering his Kingship).

Hell, him saying no to that proposal would have solidified Dany's sense of isolation more than "sorry, won't bang you anymore Auntie".
Because it would not have made a difference. Jon was not going to take that relationship any further. They discussed this before they knew Jon had a claim to the throne. This was the whole reason why she asked Jon not to tell anyone. Once he did that, Dany would automatically become second fiddle for most of Westeros because that is how the society worked. As Varys said: Cocks are important. Particularly when Danaerys cannot have children to carry on her name once she takes the throne.

Even if they consented to it, Jon having the better claim is a THREAT to her no matter if Jon believes this or not.

And that is the primary reason why she did this. Danaerys identifies with oppressed people. She believes in empowering oppressed people and turning them against the ruling upper class. She is a revolutionary. The trouble is King's Landing and the people in it WERE NOT going to do that for her. They don't care who sits on the throne. If Danaerys had let them surrender and it had come to a political statement, all the houses who now knew of Jon's alignment would have backed him over her. This was her brute force claim: If you're not for me, you're against me. And I will burn whoever is against me. Considering Cersei has used this against her time and time again to great effect, she violated it on purpose.

Have we seen the same Dany? The Dany they have shown since the beginning:
1. Stopped the Dothraki from raping the middle of a raid and demanded they be taken as wives.
2. Gave explicit orders to not harm innocents when she took Astapor.
3. Took a strategically unimportant city against Jorah's advice purely to save the oppressed.
4. Demanded to see the crucified children prior to burial and only targeted the slave masters for punishment (yes, some collateral damage).
5. Stayed in conquered city for years when she didn't need to to ensure slavery didn't return.
6. Chained her dragons because a single child was burned by one and she didn't want any more innocent deaths.
7. Allowed the fighting pits to reopen despite her personal objections purely to earn some political points with the people.
8. Only targeted the invading forces when the other slave cities tried to retake Meereen.
9. Only hit military targets during her early campaign in Westeros.
10. Allowed surrendering forces the opportunity to bend the knee and accept her rule.
11. Abandoned the campaign as soon as she saw the Northern threat.
12. Brokered a truce with the Crown even though she knew it would allow Cersei to regroup. Remember, they didn't originally expect Cersei to be sending troops. The deal they proposed was to stop the war while Dany's forces went to Winterfell. Cersei "promising" to send the Lannister forces was a last minute bonus.
No, she isn't the same Dany. That's the point of an arc. Is there evidence that this could have happened from the very beginning though?

Yes.

When she arrives at the gates of Qarth, she says:

"When my dragons are grown … we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.”

and

"I am Danaerys Stormborn, and I will take what is mine with Fire and Blood."

There are in fact 40 different times throughout Game of Thrones where this was alluded to. If you want to read them all, they're listed right here:

40 Times 'Game of Thrones' Foreshadowed Dany's Mad Queen Transformation - https://www.inverse.com/article/55831-why-did-daenerys-burn-kings-landing-game-of-thrones-season-8-dany-mad-queen-foreshadowing-40-examples

I will, however, indulge by pointing out a specific example that foreshadowed what is happening now. During the Mereen battle, when the Masters of Astapor, Yunkai, and others were attacking her city, what was Danaerys initial course of action: "I will crucify the masters. I will set their fleets afire. I will kill every last one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt. That is my plan." Without Tyrion's council, she would have likely done just that now that she had the power to.

The trouble is she doesn't trust Tyrion anymore and she doesn't have that wise council to prevent her impulses.

I want to specifically address the last examples you mentioned:


9. Only hit military targets during her early campaign in Westeros. --- Cersei outmatched her and used this to her advantage at every turn because she was counciled specifically not to go to King's Landing first. She has taken losses again and again because of this.
10. Allowed surrendering forces the opportunity to bend the knee and accept her rule. - Through threats of burning them with her dragons otherwise.
11. Abandoned the campaign as soon as she saw the Northern threat. - Not 100% willingly. And she when she did assist in the Northern threat, people didn't hail her as a savior. She was still treated with suspicion and without the adoration afforded to Jon Snow. This goes back to her difficulties at accepting the fact the people are not FOR HER here like they were in Essos.
12. Brokered a truce with the Crown even though she knew it would allow Cersei to regroup. Remember, they didn't originally expect Cersei to be sending troops. The deal they proposed was to stop the war while Dany's forces went to Winterfell. Cersei "promising" to send the Lannister forces was a last minute bonus. -- Another idea counciled by Tyrion that did not work out in her favor. Then Cersei uses the hostages against her and people flocked to Cersei. Her anger may have been directed towards Cersei, but it extended to the city itself much as it did when the Masters attacked Meereen.

All of her rage up to this point has been specifically aimed at her enemies. She has always gone out of her way to avoid collateral damage as much as possible and never needed advisors to tell her that. Even when she killed the Tarlys, she still gave them multiple chances to bend the knee first.

If there had been any hints like "I will scour Meereen until the Sons of the Harpy are gone" with Barristan saying "Yo, you shouldn't do that.", I would more inclined to believe it. But there was almost nothing like that. The closest we have is Barristan convincing her to give a dude a trial before execution and Tyrion trying to talk her out of executing the Tarlys.
That's a little generous. There were plenty of times she needed to be stopped or made threats of violence that would have included innocents as well. Even as far back as season 2 when she marched up to Qarth and threatened that she will take what is hers in fire and blood and that she will scatter armies and burn cities to the ground. Now people want to act shocked when she is carrying out the threats she has made numerous points through the show.

Tyrion even flat-out stated: "She knows herself. She has chosen advisers to temper her worst impulses." Well, all the advisers she trusts have a) let her down b) betrayed her for Jon Snow c) been killed. What does she have left?
 
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She isn't the most brutal Targaryen in history. Not even close. Aegon the Conqueror burnt down half of Dorne when his sister wife Rhaenys was killed. Before that, his dragon melted down Harrenhal when the Ironborn refused to surrender. Maegor the Cruel has earned his rep for a reason. The Dance of Dragons. You remember that? It was the Targaryens in-fighting each other in brutal ways to ensure their claim to the throne was honored.
And not a single one of them burned a city with a population of 1,000,000 people that had surrendered. Aegon burned half of Dorne during a war of conquest. Aegon spared the North, despite being fully ready for war, because they surrendered.

I believe she tried. Little bit difficult to do that 100% effectively from dragonback while he's in the middle of that rat maze of a city.
I don't recall any scenes that indicated she was specifically aiming for Jon.

Because it would not have made a difference. Jon was not going to take that relationship any further. They discussed this before they knew Jon had a claim to the throne. This was the whole reason why she asked Jon not to tell anyone. Once he did that, Dany would automatically become second fiddle for most of Westeros because that is how the society worked. As Varys said: Cocks are important. Particularly when Danaerys cannot have children to carry on her name once she takes the throne.

Even if they consented to it, Jon having the better claim is a THREAT to her no matter if Jon believes this or not.
To which I would argue, why did she even try to rekindle her relationship with Jon? If he's a threat no matter what, why bother? One of the main criticisms of this season is that everything feels rushed. If they had taken the time to fully flesh something like this out, her going Mad Queen would feel more natural.

And that is the primary reason why she did this. Danaerys identifies with oppressed people. She believes in empowering oppressed people and turning them against the ruling upper class. She is a revolutionary. The trouble is King's Landing and the people in it WERE NOT going to do that for her. They don't care who sits on the throne. If Danaerys had let them surrender and it had come to a political statement, all the houses who now knew of Jon's alignment would have backed him over her. This was her brute force claim: If you're not for me, you're against me. And I will burn whoever is against me. Considering Cersei has used this against her time and time again to great effect, she violated it on purpose.
Burning the people that don't kneel would be a brute force claim. Specifically targeting the innocent makes her the oppressor and threatens her claim more than Jon. It's one of the main reasons her father was removed from power.

No, she isn't the same Dany. That's the point of an arc. Is there evidence that this could have happened from the very beginning though?

Yes.

When she arrives at the gates of Qarth, she says:

"When my dragons are grown … we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.”

and

"I am Danaerys Stormborn, and I will take what is mine with Fire and Blood."
And how many times did she say things like "I am not my father" and "I will not be Queen of the ashes"?

https://www.inverse.com/article/55831-why-did-daenerys-burn-kings-landing-game-of-thrones-season-8-dany-mad-queen-foreshadowing-40-examples

Most of these are just "Dany did/said something aggressive. This totally foreshadowed her becoming Dragon Hitler."

I'm not going to go over each one but I will address the absolute dumbest one:
she agrees to reopen the fighting pits, possibly showing an inclination towards violence.
She was against the fighting pits and only did it to try to curry favor in Meereen. When she attended the fights, she made it clear she did not want to be there.


I will, however, indulge by pointing out a specific example that foreshadowed what is happening now. During the Mereen battle, when the Masters of Astapor, Yunkai, and others were attacking her city, what was Danaerys initial course of action: "I will crucify the masters. I will set their fleets afire. I will kill every last one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt. That is my plan." Without Tyrion's council, she would have likely done just that now that she had the power to.
Fair enough. There should have been a LOT more of that throughout the series.

Cersei outmatched her and used this to her advantage at every turn because she was counciled specifically not to go to King's Landing first. She has taken losses again and again because of this.


And despite all of that, she had won; the city was hers

Through threats of burning them with her dragons otherwise.
Which is kinda what Targaryens with dragons do.

Not 100% willingly. And she when she did assist in the Northern threat, people didn't hail her as a savior. She was still treated with suspicion and without the adoration afforded to Jon Snow. This goes back to her difficulties at accepting the fact the people are not FOR HER here like they were in Essos.

And they should have taken the time to properly develop that. Instead, all we got was a couple of scenes of Jon chilling with his buds and Sansa being a cunt.

That's a little generous. There were plenty of times she needed to be stopped or made threats of violence that would have included innocents as well. Even as far back as season 2 when she marched up to Qarth and threatened that she will take what is hers in fire and blood and that she will scatter armies and burn cities to the ground. Now people want to act shocked when she is carrying out the threats she has made numerous points through the show.

Tyrion even flat-out stated: "She knows herself. She has chosen advisers to temper her worst impulses." Well, all the advisers she trusts have a) let her down b) betrayed her for Jon Snow c) been killed. What does she have left?
For each "Fire and Blood" line she has said throughout the series, there's probably at least 5 lines of "I want to save the little people" and many actions that were much stronger to that effect. Most people aren't shocked that she did it, they are shocked because the set up was extremely lacking. If they had filmed a full season like HBO was more than willing to fund, they could have had an extra episode or 2 in the North after the battle to really drive home the lack of support from the people, flesh out Jon and Dany's relationship, give Sansa an actual reason to distrust Dany, etc.

Dany going "Mad Queen" has been a long running theory. People would have accepted it if the set up was done correctly.
 

TTGOz

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Can we talk about how during the battle of winterfell they put the women and children in the crypt knowing that the night king could raise people from the dead? or how we saw the Dothraki pretty much massacred by the Wights and seeing just a few run back from the fight and then in Episode Five there's still a whole army of Dothraki? Maybe I'm just nit-picking but just something I caught.
 

JagStar

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And not a single one of them burned a city with a population of 1,000,000 people that had surrendered. Aegon burned half of Dorne during a war of conquest. Aegon spared the North, despite being fully ready for war, because they surrendered.
Dragon's Wroth - https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon%27s_Wroth


Is not Daenerys also conducting a War of Conquest? I fail to see the difference between Aegon & Visenyas actions following Rhaenys death and that of Daenerys following Missandei's. As Tyrion has pointed out: "You're talking about destroying cities (full of innocent people); it's not entirely different."


I don't recall any scenes that indicated she was specifically aiming for Jon.
As I said, it's a little bit difficult to do when you're on dragonback up in the air trying to burn down or locate 1 person in a city with a population of millions. Do I believe she would have burned down the whole city if she knew he was inside of it? Yes. I do. It would have been convenient to make it look like friendly fire than simply murder him when he's been "loyal" to you. Though had Jon died, she would have ostensibly lost the North.


To which I would argue, why did she even try to rekindle her relationship with Jon? If he's a threat no matter what, why bother? One of the main criticisms of this season is that everything feels rushed. If they had taken the time to fully flesh something like this out, her going Mad Queen would feel more natural.
She was desperate not to feel alone. To feel some measure of love. As Viserys stated: "Who can rule without wealth, or fear, or love?" I believe she did go out of her way in Westeros to avoid this outcome. As she said several times, "I am not here to be Queen of the Ashes." & "Maybe they will see that Daenerys Stormborn tried every avenue to avoid bloodshed. Perhaps they will know who to blame when the sky falls in upon them." She did not want this outcome, but when she believed the other two avenues were closed to her, she went with the third: fear. I believe she did avoid it, but this was an extension of her emotions over losing all the people who were closest to her and not trusting those she had left, including Jon.

His refusal to return her affections in a moment where she felt vulnerable hurt and contributed some to what she was already feeling, judging by the expression of grief we see on her face when Tyrion goes to tell her about Varys.


Burning the people that don't kneel would be a brute force claim. Specifically targeting the innocent makes her the oppressor and threatens her claim more than Jon. It's one of the main reasons her father was removed from power.
This is generally what happens with revolutionaries more often than not? I have specifically mentioned that this is what Daenerys is and where her power stems from. In Essos, she used this to her advantage. The people rose up behind her and toppled their regimes for her without her so much as having to lift a finger in some cases. They hailed her as Mhysa and, in her wake, more violence stemmed from the former oppressed against their oppressors more often than not (and Daenerys usually did not care). The Masters retook control of the cities eventually in the power vacuums she left when she was done with them to try and reassert control.

In Westeros, the society is different. The people are "free" and not rising up against their establishment as one army is the same as another. She isn't considered 'different' or a symbolism of 'change' like she is over in Essos. She has become just another part of the wheel whether she realizes it or not in her desperation to hang onto the throne.


I'm not going to go over each one but I will address the absolute dumbest one:

She was against the fighting pits and only did it to try to curry favor in Meereen. When she attended the fights, she made it clear she did not want to be there.
I agree with you there. She did not want to open the fighting pits. But it does show she can be flexible on some principles of hers.



And despite all of that, she had won; the city was hers
For a time. She "conquered" the city. That does not mean she automatically gets the throne. I don't think she was satisfied with the outcome either. Neither was Greyworm apparently.

Which is kinda what Targaryens with dragons do.
Some. Not always. There were a lot of benevolent rulers who preferred to settle things differently. It certainly does establish precedent that she's willing to use violence to get what she wants. No different than Cersei in most aspects.

And they should have taken the time to properly develop that. Instead, all we got was a couple of scenes of Jon chilling with his buds and Sansa being a cunt.
I think three episodes (including the first one) where she arrived without little fanfare from the North, repeatedly questioned by the Northern Lords, mild racism against her Essosi troops, attempting to make peace with Sansa but failing, and the celebration were enough to demonstrate that she is on the outs. I don't need to be hit over the head with it over two more episodes to understand her frustrations with the reactions she's getting with people she has come to help.

I will state, however, that I do find fault with Danaerys in this as well. She is expecting loyalty when she isn't doing much to set about it besides trying to endebt people to her. If I were her, I would have listened to Missandei and paraded south to try and fight a propaganda war before entering the city. Let Cersei make her claims. They had Jaime and the North and ostensibly the Vale through Royce who has been lurking behind Sansa this whole time.

For each "Fire and Blood" line she has said throughout the series, there's probably at least 5 lines of "I want to save the little people" and many actions that were much stronger to that effect. Most people aren't shocked that she did it, they are shocked because the set up was extremely lacking. If they had filmed a full season like HBO was more than willing to fund, they could have had an extra episode or 2 in the North after the battle to really drive home the lack of support from the people, flesh out Jon and Dany's relationship, give Sansa an actual reason to distrust Dany, etc.

Dany going "Mad Queen" has been a long running theory. People would have accepted it if the set up was done correctly.
Sansa's reasons for mistrusting Dany were laid out on screen already: Stark history with Danaerys' father. Plus Danaerys has taken offense with even the most reasonable of things Sansa has stated. Why wouldn't she mistrust her?

Her claims of 'I want to save the little people' were usually about oppressed people whom she identified with. Slaves, and the like. Here, mostly everyone is "free", and there's very little to distinguish Daenerys above any of the other tens of kings and queens who have risen up recently. It's easy to make that claim 'I want to save the little people' when the goose is hanging high for her (when the people are behind her). It's another thing entirely when the chips are down and she doesn't have that support any longer (Olenna is gone; Dorne was gone for awhile; II mostly against her under Euron this entire time).

Aside from that, I could agree with Dany and Jon's relationship needing to have been fleshed out. I, too, was onboard with the marriage thing despite concerns raised from Varys until recently. Jon is coming off as a wishy washy cunt. He sounds like he wants the relationship one minute and then 'noping out' the next. She had support for some areas mentioned ("The New Prince of Dorne has pledged his support") but I think the losses she has taken in so short a time: Jorah, Missandei, Rhaegal, and her degrading trust in Jon, Tyrion, and Varys has really shaken her into a similar Dragon's Wroth state.
 
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JagStar

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Can we talk about how during the battle of winterfell they put the women and children in the crypt knowing that the night king could raise people from the dead? or how we saw the Dothraki pretty much massacred by the Wights and seeing just a few run back from the fight and then in Episode Five there's still a whole army of Dothraki? Maybe I'm just nit-picking but just something I caught.
The Battle of Winterfell was my most disappointing episode this season. I know they needed to raise the stakes, but you're dealing with a literal army of the dead. Surely, there was enough dough to hire military historians to make sure you're doing this without making everyone look fecking stupid.

And lol at the magically reanimated Dothraki and Unsullied.
 

TTGOz

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The Battle of Winterfell was my most disappointing episode this season. I know they needed to raise the stakes, but you're dealing with a literal army of the dead. Surely, there was enough dough to hire military historians to make sure you're doing this without making everyone look fecking stupid.

And lol at the magically reanimated Dothraki and Unsullied.
The episode was entirely anti-climatic to me. Seven seasons of straight Witch King hype END OF THE WORLD incoming and it ends just like that. I don't exactly remember but didn't the Iron Fleet totally decimate the fleet sent by Dany when her dragon was shot down? and we only saw the main characters and a few other soldiers survive? I'm guessing that's what we're talking about when you say the reanimated Unsullied. Just so weird. Can't forget the magically placed Starbucks cup.

part of me wonders if that was left there "on accident" because Starbucks paid for a promo and thought it would be good to just accidentally have it there. Two years of production and editing and you wanna tell me NO ONE saw it.
 

JagStar

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The episode was entirely anti-climatic to me. Seven seasons of straight Witch King hype END OF THE WORLD incoming and it ends just like that. I don't exactly remember but didn't the Iron Fleet totally decimate the fleet sent by Dany when her dragon was shot down? and we only saw the main characters and a few other soldiers survive? I'm guessing that's what we're talking about when you say the reanimated Unsullied. Just so weird. Can't forget the magically placed Starbucks cup.

part of me wonders if that was left there "on accident" because Starbucks paid for a promo and thought it would be good to just accidentally have it there. Two years of production and editing and you wanna tell me NO ONE saw it.
I agree with this. I think it would have run better if the battle for Winterfell had lasted for two episodes instead of just one. The first being the first battle and the other being a minor timeskip where several other skirmishes with the dead could have taken place. I didn't mind Arya doing in the Night King, but the execution of the battle violates every military strategy made. Yes, it's a TV show, but even Lord of the Rings and others had something resembling actual tactics from time to time. Here, it's just glaring.

Why would you send your Dothraki out without having any reasonable idea of whats out there? Light and Med cavalry was used to gain real-time intelligence and to harrass. Not "Custer" themselves on a threat unseen.
Why was there not more than one trench to create choke points for the dead?
Why were the battle lines positioned in front of the trenches?
In fact, why were there battle lines outside the castle at all? I don't recall any sieges where people waited outside the walls. That's ass backwards.
Why were they not shooting those (lmao) flaming arrows at the dead when they were standing still?
Why didn't they send the non-combatants to Castle Cerwyn less than half a days ride away? I guess they didn't have the set, but it was definitely a better plan than putting them in the CRYPT.
Why did so many people live? Like what the fuck?

The Rhaegal thing was retarded. There were so many more ways this could have been executed better. This just makes Daenerys look pathetic. I get they did not want to have Rhaegal around because that means Jon Snow would have the means to physically stop Danaerys in the following episode. I get that. But pretending scouts don't exist or Daenerys couldn't see the Iron Fleet from 100 feet up in the air is ludicrous.
 
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Dragon's Wroth - https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon%27s_Wroth


Is not Daenerys also conducting a War of Conquest? I fail to see the difference between Aegon & Visenyas actions following Rhaenys death and that of Daenerys following Missandei's. As Tyrion has pointed out: "You're talking about destroying cities (full of innocent people); it's not entirely different."
The big difference is "surrender". Aegon spared those that surrendered. The Tyrells were awarded lordship over Highgarden for surrendering. If Dany was in his place, she probably would have burned it down and then killed gone to kill Torrhen Stark for good measure.

As I said, it's a little bit difficult to do when you're on dragonback up in the air trying to burn down or locate 1 person in a city with a population of millions. Do I believe she would have burned down the whole city if she knew he was inside of it? Yes. I do. It would have been convenient to make it look like friendly fire than simply murder him when he's been "loyal" to you. Though had Jon died, she would have ostensibly lost the North.
I'm not saying she didn't try, I'm just saying nothing in the show made it look like she was even searching for him.

She was desperate not to feel alone. To feel some measure of love. As Viserys stated: "Who can rule without wealth, or fear, or love?" I believe she did go out of her way in Westeros to avoid this outcome. As she said several times, "I am not here to be Queen of the Ashes." & "Maybe they will see that Daenerys Stormborn tried every avenue to avoid bloodshed. Perhaps they will know who to blame when the sky falls in upon them." She did not want this outcome, but when she believed the other two avenues were closed to her, she went with the third: fear. I believe she did avoid it, but this was an extension of her emotions over losing all the people who were closest to her and not trusting those she had left, including Jon.
And I'm saying she had already accomplished fear. She could have driven the point home by just torching the Red Keep with everyone inside. Instead, we got Mad Queen with insufficient build up to that point.


Neither was Greyworm apparently.
Greyworm did exactly what I expected all the soldiers to do. He stopped when he knew the signal was given, regardless of his personal feelings. Then when Dany started torching the streets...




I will state, however, that I do find fault with Danaerys in this as well. She is expecting loyalty when she isn't doing much to set about it besides trying to endebt people to her. If I were her, I would have listened to Missandei and paraded south to try and fight a propaganda war before entering the city. Let Cersei make her claims. They had Jaime and the North and ostensibly the Vale through Royce who has been lurking behind Sansa this whole time.
Dany listening to Sansa and giving the troops a chance to rest would have helped too. She could have waged the propaganda war via ravens and messengers while her troops respawned healed


Sansa's reasons for mistrusting Dany were laid out on screen already: Stark history with Danaerys' father. Plus Danaerys has taken offense with even the most reasonable of things Sansa has stated. Why wouldn't she mistrust her?
I would have expected Sansa to warm up to Dany a little bit after the battle. Granted, Dany going "fuck letting the troops recover, we must march NOW" didn't help.


Jon is coming off as a wishy washy cunt. He sounds like he wants the relationship one minute and then 'noping out' the next.
God yes. He's becoming the most overpaid extra next to Cersei this season.

She had support for some areas mentioned ("The New Prince of Dorne has pledged his support")
That line was basically useless other than highlighting the fact that a propaganda war might have made a huge difference.
 
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I agree with this. I think it would have run better if the battle for Winterfell had lasted for two episodes instead of just one. The first being the first battle and the other being a minor timeskip where several other skirmishes with the dead could have taken place. I didn't mind Arya doing in the Night King, but the execution of the battle violates every military strategy made. Yes, it's a TV show, but even Lord of the Rings and others had something resembling actual tactics from time to time. Here, it's just glaring.
Here's where we agree on almost everything. That whole battle, I'm like "WTF, are they TRYING to die?"

Why would you send your Dothraki out without having any reasonable idea of whats out there? Light and Med cavalry was used to gain real-time intelligence and to harrass. Not "Custer" themselves on a threat unseen.
I don't think the Dothraki charge was planned. I think that was Dothraki doing what they do. There was a brief glimpse of Jorah at the beginning of the charge and his face kinda looked like "Uhhh shit, guess we're going".

Why was there not more than one trench to create choke points for the dead?
Why were the battle lines positioned in front of the trenches?
This. So much, this.

In fact, why were there battle lines outside the castle at all? I don't recall any sieges where people waited outside the walls. That's ass backwards.
To be fair, if the castle can't hold all the infantry, it would be wise to form lines around the walls but within archer range. However, it looked like they put nearly ALL their forces outside the walls. In reality, the castle grounds should have been packed with infantry.

edit: And artillery. Having the siege weapons out in front was so fucking stupid.

Why were they not shooting those (lmao) flaming arrows at the dead when they were standing still?
This. Additionally, why didn't they man the walls until the undead were nearly at them. Archers should have been posted on the walls the entire time.

Why didn't they send the non-combatants to Castle Cerwyn less than half a days ride away? I guess they didn't have the set, but it was definitely a better plan than putting them in the CRYPT.
Hell, they should have been evacuating all non-combatants from the North entirely from the moment the Wall was breached. They could have employed the Dothraki and dragons as scouts and harassment to slow down the advance.

Why did so many people live? Like what the fuck?
Especially Sam and Brienne. They showed them being overwhelmed multiple times and managed to magically survive. Pod should have died too as he was barely getting the hang of sword fighting prior to the battle.

The Rhaegal thing was retarded. There were so many more ways this could have been executed better. This just makes Daenerys look pathetic. I get they did not want to have Rhaegal around because that means Jon Snow would have the means to physically stop Danaerys in the following episode. I get that. But pretending scouts don't exist or Daenerys couldn't see the Iron Fleet from 100 feet up in the air is ludicrous.
This so much. I was going "Wait, did the fleet just now come out from behind the island? THEN HOW THE FUCK DID THEY SHOOT THE DRAGON!"
 

JagStar

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Dany listening to Sansa and giving the troops a chance to rest would have helped too. She could have waged the propaganda war via ravens and messengers while her troops respawned healed




I would have expected Sansa to warm up to Dany a little bit after the battle. Granted, Dany going "fuck letting the troops recover, we must march NOW" didn't help.



God yes. He's becoming the most overpaid extra next to Cersei this season.


That line was basically useless other than highlighting the fact that a propaganda war might have made a huge difference.
Exactly.

Hell, even if Cersei refuted claims that they had just won a war over the dead, so fucking what? She could have done what the Roman Emperors did during their campaigns. She could rode out front of the Army with Jon following behind her with a big Targaryen banner and just leisurely strolled through the unoccupied Riverlands. She could have kissed babies, threw gold to the peasants, feasted with the Lords (who might I remind the audience had originally fought with the Starks and had no real disputes outside of the Freys who are now dead). Edmure Tully, if I'm not mistaken, is now Lord of Riverrun and is Sansa, Bran, Arya's uncle. Wouldn't he want some sweet, sweet vengeance on the Lannisters? Fresh troops for the exhausted army, non? And if he's still prisoner to the Lannisters, they have plenty of other Lords who were loyal to Catelyn and would be willing to listen.

I still don't even get why they went to Dragonstone to begin with. Having left it nearly empty for months, presumably, and with it being a stone's throw away from King's Landing, why even make the attempt to go there at all? Everyone could have gotten what they wanted with the latter.

Hell, they should have been evacuating all non-combatants from the North entirely from the moment the Wall was breached. They could have employed the Dothraki and dragons as scouts and harassment to slow down the advance.


Especially Sam and Brienne. They showed them being overwhelmed multiple times and managed to magically survive. Pod should have died too as he was barely getting the hang of sword fighting prior to the battle.



This so much. I was going "Wait, did the fleet just now come out from behind the island? THEN HOW THE FUCK DID THEY SHOOT THE DRAGON!"
I agree with all of this. There was even an article I read where a physicist claimed it was near impossible for a scorpion to hit Rhaegal from that distance and did calculations to prove the arrow would have had to have been traveling at mach 3, at a twenty degree angle, and would have been in the air for nearly 163 miles.

I assumed Brienne and Sam were going to live because they had some actual role in the government to play. Certainly not whatever happened here where they all just fucked off and their arcs are meaningless now.
 
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I still don't even get why they went to Dragonstone to begin with. Having left it nearly empty for months, presumably, and with it being a stone's throw away from King's Landing, why even make the attempt to go there at all?
Honestly, I was expecting Dragonstone to be held by Euron before they got there. Hidden ballistas on the walls taking out Rheagal right as they got in range would have made much more sense than magically shooting through an island.
 

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I'm really liking the "Führerin Dany" twist because it fucked with the expectations of a big chunk of the audience who have been projecting yass queen slay memes onto a fantasy character doing things in a nonexistent universe since the show started airing. Of course it's a given that she would have to become Danaerys "Bend the knee or you get the Zyklon B" Targaryen because that's how absolute power works, as somebody else pointed out too. Being a benevolent dictator is extremely tricky to do and has been pulled off so few times in history, and never by a teenager.
 

GoodyNN

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I was not surprised at Dany's assassination, but I was rather hoping Arya would be the one holding the blade, perhaps with a borrowed face. Especially since she was denied the ability to personally cross Cersei off her list.
 
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