What are your thoughts on this people led movement?

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#1
I am surprised that there arent any topics on the occupy wall street protests, so I guess Ill start one. Me myself, I am hugely for it, for many reasons. I usually try to keep my political opinions to myself (I am a moderate republican) but I think this movement transcends politics. Its a symbol of our democracy, a fundamental right to question our government and their action when they prove to be self serving. A lot of people argue that there is no cohesive message. I disagree. I think it points to America being a free nation, of equal opportunity, yet, that inst how things run. Money runs politics, and therefore, the rich run the country. I whole heartily believe in capitalism, but that isnt what we have, we have something entirely different. Free market would have dictated that failed banks would go out of business, but they didn't. Now middle America is going out of business, but no one is doing anything. Wages are stagnant, yet the cost of living is escalating. Milk is 3.50 a gallon. gas goes up. But I still dont make more. But they want us to spend more money, how funny, yet they dont pay enough to even cover rent. I heard the argument against these protests, but they just dont make sense to me.

1. These people are looking for a handout- Um, No, I think they are looking for accountability and oversight. Banks that ruined us should not get to act as if its business as usual. I dont think its fair that CEO's dont get paid per performance, like we do. I am not against them getting paid big bonuses, but I am against them getting paid bonuses when they run their companies into the ground, slash pay significantly, and in some cases lay people off, all while posting record profits.

2. People arent trying hard enough to get Jobs, or arent taking jobs that are there- Clearly these people haven't been in the job hunt for a while because everyone I have ever talked to has probably lost count on how many applications they have sent out. I can conservatively say that I have passed the 500 mark, and I know this because I save every one for reference. And these are college educated people, competing for entry level, minimum wage job. I have applied at Mcdonalds, Taco bell, I even applied to clean bathrooms. Nothing. and of course I am college educated, graduated with honors from a top 20 nationally ranked university.

3. People arent educated enough/ need advanced education- This argument is stupid, seeing as the market is flooded with college graduates that cant find work in their field, or any other related field. People already have incurred enough debt without adding more on with a guarantee of a stable work market.

4. People who have a job should just be grateful- You know what, I am grateful to be underemployed, at least its something right? But this argument makes it sound like I should just shut up and take it. Take the constant verbal abuse (this is a daily occurrence at my store) the low pay, the hierarchical and systematic repression of advancement. All that runs rampant when you know your workforce doesn't have the option to go elsewhere. And Yes I know that target was never set up to be a living wage, I know that. I just think its kind of hypocritical that we do so much for our community and so little for our team members. How is it fair that you have stellar team members who give there all and get a pittance of 20 cent raise. But our CEO get 23 million plus stock options. And the board easily makes 300,000 each. Not enough to go around? We are the engine that makes it all work, but the appreciation is little.

I am sorry if this was inappropriate for this forum, mod feel free to take it down. I am just fed up with life, I played by the rules, and I get treat like less than. I am not better than anyone. And neither are they.
 
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#2
MY opinion is, I enjoy getting arrested.

They and you have the right to think or say anything you want.

They also have the right to "peaceably assemble."

They DO NOT have the right to camp out on public property, obstruct traffic, block entrances to buildings and interfere with other peoples livelihoods.
 

redeye58

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#3
I love how the GOP characterizes the movement as an unruly mob but praised the Tea Party movement as instrumental in "taking back America". Sure, the TP hasn't camped out on public proptery but they've disrupted plenty of town hall meetings when elected reps (mostly Deomcrats) were attempting to meet with their constituents. My rep was shouted down during such a meeting when he was attempting to answer questions about the new health care laws. Seems the TP didn't want others to hear the facts. They also made sure to notify the local media that they intended to disrupt the town hall.
Tea Partiers are hypocrites when their lofty goals interfere with their own perks (like the freshman legislator who was asked if he planned to lobby Washington to cut congressional benefits; his response: "Certainly not! I've EARNED those!").
The occupy movement does need to define its purpose but, when it does, it could be as much a backlash as the Tea Party.
 

buliSBI

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#6
IMO these are going to be the opposite of Tea Partiers. Maybe become the new generation of radical hippies. They want reform for the low income/middle class/jobless people. They want kickbacks stopped for corporations. And they will do anything.

And it may become like Vancouver after losing the Stanley Cup or whenever a World Summit is the town. RIOT!!
 

commiecorvus

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#8
O.T. - pzychopopgroove -- didn't know there was anyone here who was into old school punk. I'm a big fan, used to sport a mohawk and that was back in the 80's.


I might be giving myself away but I've been marching on my days off for the past couple of weeks (except for Yom Kipper).
I guess for anybody who been on the board for a while that's not much of a surprise.

Here is the declaration of the Occupation,

https://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/10/02-1

Nobodies livelihoods are being interrupted, both the committees (and the NYPD) are making sure of that.
People are being arrested for trumped up charges. Marching without a permit? Good reason to wrap people in netting.
I wasn't there when they maced the young woman but I've talked to people who were and the cops set that up from the start.
Net them like animals and blinded them with chemicals for no reason.
The bridge was another situation where the cops pushed people out onto the street then started arresting them for blocking traffic.
Why would they do things like this to peaceful demonstrators?

In Wisconsin the police marched with the teachers and firefighters because they knew they would be the next group targeted in the war on the middle class.
In NYC the cops have been bought by JP Morgan.
On the night before the protest started the JP Morgan Chase gave the biggest donation ever, 4.6 million dollars, to the New York City Police Foundation.
http://www.disinfo.com/2011/10/jp-morgan-chase-donates-4-6-million-to-nypd-on-eve-of-protests/
Pretty much explains why they are willing to club us on command.
 

commiecorvus

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#12

commiecorvus

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#13
Alan Grayson was on Real Time with Bill Mahr.
P.J. O'Rourk was making jokes about Occupy (I like PJ even if I don't agree with any of his politics) and Alan Grayson schooled him.

O’Rourke claimed that the Occupy Wall Street people flunked econ, and Grayson said, “No, listen Bill, I have no trouble understanding what they are talking about.”
O’Rourke asked Grayson, “You passed econ?”
Grayson answered, “I was an economist for more than three years, so I think so…Now let me tell you about what they’re talking about.
They’re complaining that Wall Street wrecked the economy three years ago and nobody’s held responsible for that.
Not a single person’s been indicted or convicted for destroying twenty percent of our national net worth accumulated over two centuries.
They’re upset about the fact that Wall Street has iron control over the economic policies of this country, and that one party is a wholly owned subsidiary of Wall Street, and the other party caters to them as well.”

O’Rourke joked that Occupy Wall Street has found their spokesman, then Grayson continued, “Listen, if I am spokesman for all the people who think that we should not have 24 million people in this country who can’t find a full time job, that we should not have 50 million people in this country who can’t see a doctor when they’re sick, that we shouldn’t have 47 million people in this country who need government help to feed themselves, and we shouldn’t have 15 million families who owe more on their mortgage than the value of their home, okay, I’ll be that spokesman.”
I've respected Grayson ever since he did his presentation on the Republican health plan.
'DON"T GET SICK!!!!"
"And if you do die quickly."
 
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#15
They need to occupy some job vacancies. Get off the street and quit being bums.
Because evidently you have to be jobless to protest right? Wrong. Protests occurred outside of my office and I went out after work and joined in. I don't dislike people who are insanely wealthy... I don't even want that kind of money (think about what it takes to maintain that kind of fortune) I just want them to pay their "Fair share" ideally with a flat tax that is equal across all incomes above a set poverty line. (say 17%) But that's only a small reason that the people are out there.

The real reason is simple. The Fed is a private bank. The fed prints money and loans it to the government with interest. The government collects taxes to pay for all its programs and pay the fed/debt. It's always spending more than its making so it constantly has to print/borrow. The American people can't even control their own spending habits but they have to throw more cash at the governments debt as well, and a portion of the wealthiest in the world are/were directly responsible for creating this flawed system. Why? Greed. We let them do it so we have a responsibility to stop them. Personally I want to see a lot more action than protesting.

This country is in for a hell of a ride.
 
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#16
To add, I've noticed republicans in general are really cracking down. They are saying some really outlandish ************. I read a post from one saying that a protester that supposedly fell to their death deserved to die and it was gods doing for going against capitalism. There have been calls to end the protest and arrest everyone involved. Basically people calling for their rights to be stripped. These people (far right republicans/ bible fanatics) have no concept of what this country was founded on, and if their behavior becomes common enough it'll lead to war.

"Why don't the bums go get a job"
"Look at the idiots chanting"
"They are filthy vagrants"
"They shouldn't be allowed to protest"
"I work all day for my ************ty pay while they protest the top 1% having 99% of the wealth, they should get a job"

The comments go on and on. I don't support many of the ideas I've read that occupiers are advocating, but I support the idea of a "peoples revolution" and an end to wage slavery. Still think you are free? Look at the reality of where things are made, what it really costs to have that ipod/ipad, new pc, tv, the food you eat, your new car. Look what it has cost you. Incomes are dropping fast, unemployment is going up, and we are in our 2nd recession. The American dream was just that. A dream. Time to wake the ************ up. It's up to us the citizens of the USA to return our republic (we are a republic NOT a democracy, look up the difference) to the form of capitalism it was built on. The form that works.

Small government. Help those that need to be helped through charity with government pitching in for the most desperate. Isolationist foreign policy. End the Fed. Pay off our debts and return to surplus. Hold China accountable for cheating on a global scale and undervaluing their currency by instituting tariffs and trade bans until they sort it out. Tax fairly through flat tax or consumption tax and eliminate tax system bureaucracy. Manufacturing belongs here because we are supposed to be the best in the world by having the best education, best discipline and the strongest will to achieve our goals.
 
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#21
To be blunt, I think these people are a bunch of blithering idiots and that's not coming from some rich guy.

It's coming from a guy who doesn't even have a job.

This is nothing more than the same old class warfare rhetoric the whacko left has been tying to sell for decades.

They are the "99%?"

Give me a bleeping break.

They are more like the 9 %, if that.
 
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#22
To be blunt, I think these people are a bunch of blithering idiots and that's not coming from some rich guy.

It's coming from a guy who doesn't even have a job.

This is nothing more than the same old class warfare rhetoric the whacko left has been tying to sell for decades.

They are the "99%?"

Give me a bleeping break.

They are more like the 9 %, if that.
You just don't get it do you. You turn this into some political party BS, the same old ************ that the more intelligent among us have been trying to escape from for years. I will spell it out so that it's simple.

The occupy movement stands for the following:

- The top 1% has the vast majority of wealth in this country
- With wealth comes power. Their vote matters more. They can buy their way and get what they want.
- Our politicians and businessmen are corrupt
- The 1% got us into a significant portion of the mess we are in right now (but we let them. Occupy is taking responsibility for making change)
- We are the 99%. We aren't rich. We want a fair society in which hard work pays off for all, not for the few. Where everyone is paid fairly.

Each protestor has their own ideas about how to make change. You will find socialists, communists, libertarians, even republicans at the protests if you look hard enough. If you have been watching media broadcasts and that's how you base your opinion.... STOP. Watching TV for news is the reason many Americans are idiots on the issues.

With all of that being said, I personally feel the protests won't really do anything other than raise awareness. Most Americans these days are complacent. As long as they have food, basic living needs, and a small amount of personal freedom, they will deal with any ************ you feed them. That's why the top 1% walks all over everyone else. The 99% as a whole is weak minded, weak willed, and lacks the power to enact change in a meaningful way.

The current situation reminds me of pre-revolutionary America, only now the kings are international bankers, and they own EVERYTHING. Who will be the founding fathers of our day? Do we even have anyone with the backbone to fill such a role? I honestly don't think so. With our current financial situation and the way the world is beginning to trend away from globalism back to isolationism and nationalism, we are in for a tough ride.
 

redeye58

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#23
Many of these folks have attempted to play by the very rules that the power brokers always espouse. They finished school & went on to college, earned a degree to become productive members of society. Now we've got engineers who can't get a job because corporations convinced congress to increase the number of H1B visas & brought in foreign workers. Teachers can't find jobs because they're being laid off due to budget cuts (thanks, Gov Walker & Gov Perry). Crop workers are paid so poorly that Georgia couldn't even fill the gap with recently parolled felons who were desperate for work (turns out they weren't THAT desperate) & crops are rotting in the fields.
Meanwhile, corp America wants us to loosen the regs even more saying "Trust us & we'll create jobs". Every time we've loosened the reins, more jobs go overseas & the wealthy hoard their assets even more. Fine. If they're not investing in an American workforce, it's time to tax them to the teeth for it & close every loophole, tax-shelter, tax-dodge...you name it. I guarantee that, if they want to pass it onto consumers, the consumers will vote with their feet & do business with those who pass the least cost onto them. True capitalism.
 

commiecorvus

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#24
I have been middle class all my life, worked hard, played by the rules and watched things get progressively worse and worse.

The things my grandfather fought for as a Wobblie are slowly being stripped away, the things my mother marched for in the aniti-war movement have been ground to dust and it's time to hit the streets again.

Sure that makes me one of the Lefties you don't like but I've never wanted class warfare.

I've never had a problem with anybody who worked for their money, who got rich by inventing things, by building this country up, by making life better.

I wanted them to pay their fair share and by in large most of them didn't seem to mind doing that.

The people I have problems with are the ones who make million by doing nothing but shift money around, who have run company's into the ground and got bonus' for doing it and when they are asked to pay taxes on that buy the Supreme Court so they can make the election system their own.

One of the best cases for what I've seen so far was actually made in the Business Insider magazine.
It makes a very clear case through charts and graphs for why all of us should be very pissed off at the handfull of people who flushed this country down the toilet.

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1
 
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#25
To all of the above posts since my last post, utter, total BS.

I could say more, but it's simply not worth wasting my time.

Edit:

Keep telling yourselves you're the "99%" and I'll keeping laughing my ass off at you.

Yeah, I know, I watch too much news.

I've been brainwashed by the "corporate media."

Yep. I sure have.

The last time I watched a news broadcast was the night they killed Bin Laden.

But then, I'm sure that was just another part of the conspiracy by the "1%" to screw over the the "99%"

And of course the fact that your life hasn't turned out the way you would have liked is also the fault of the "1%"

Be glad I'm not say the mayor of New York City.

Bloomberg has been Gandhi in comparison to what my response to this nonsense would have been.

I honestly thought I'd found a forum frequented by people with a bit of sense.

Obviously I was wrong.

Bye.
 
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commiecorvus

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#27
Doggonit, now I feel bad.
Never meant to drive anyone off the board.
It doesn't bother me if someone disagrees with me, most of my wife's family disagrees with me, and we get get along OK.
I have friends all over the political spectrum and was raised to believe that a good argument is a fine way to spend the evening.
There's no point in taking things personally.
 

mrknownothing

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#28
It's ok, commie, I know you didn't mean it. The problem is that politics could drive even the best of friends apart. While debates about this stuff can get interesting with the insight all parties provide, sometimes it gets outweighed by the potential for angry arguments and rifts, so they should only be used in moderation (no silly puns intended). After all, this isn't even a political forum; we're all here because we work, worked, or plan to work at Target.

Southern, if you happen to be reading this, I hope you'll consider staying with us. And I wish you the best of luck in your job search.
 

redeye58

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#29
Hey, when ST first posted he derided some of us for not being customer-friendly. Before long, he had as many comments about "customers are morons" as the rest of us.
As most of us long-timers on here know, there's a variety of opinions on here. It's one thread out of a whole blanket.
 
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#31
i typed out some scathing witty response to this thread.....then deleted it because i realized it was pointless

going back to my trolling from my cave in the mountains...off the grid....safe from all the crazies who think any of this matters


love the forum btw
 

Formina Sage💯

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#32
To all of the above posts since my last post, utter, total BS.

I could say more, but it's simply not worth wasting my time.

Edit:

Keep telling yourselves you're the "99%" and I'll keeping laughing my ass off at you.

Yeah, I know, I watch too much news.

I've been brainwashed by the "corporate media."

Yep. I sure have.

The last time I watched a news broadcast was the night they killed Bin Laden.

But then, I'm sure that was just another part of the conspiracy by the "1%" to screw over the the "99%"

And of course the fact that your life hasn't turned out the way you would have liked is also the fault of the "1%"

Be glad I'm not say the mayor of New York City.

Bloomberg has been Gandhi in comparison to what my response to this nonsense would have been.

I honestly thought I'd found a forum frequented by people with a bit of sense.

Obviously I was wrong.

Bye.
lol wat. Welcome to ...the internet. Where people have varied opinions and sit in different positions on the left-right wing spectrum. I'm a bleeding heart liberal and I'm not about to retire from this board just because a couple of people don't see eye-to-eye with me. Seems to me you're the one without a "bit of sense".
 

redeye58

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#33
lol wat. Welcome to ...the internet. Where people have varied opinions and sit in different positions on the left-right wing spectrum. I'm a bleeding heart liberal and I'm not about to retire from this board just because a couple of people don't see eye-to-eye with me. Seems to me you're the one without a "bit of sense".
Amen, brother...
 

commiecorvus

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#34
My wife tells me that I tend to go railing off onto history lessons that nobody really cares about.
That if I really want to make my point to keep it simple and stop talking about stuff that happened fifty years ago.
For that matter she like to add keep it to a few bullet points and shut up so people can talk.
Here goes ...

The mistakes I've made with life are my own.
If I'm under employed, if my wife is losing more and more of her salary every year, taxes going up, etc. etc.
All of those things suck and need to be fought against but they are not the reason I'm upset.
What has me in the streets is my kids.
I'm watching a hand full of people buying up their future.
If things continue at the current rate the only middle class will be corporate.
The rest of the people who once made up the backbone of this country are going to be on the bottom looking up.
 

commiecorvus

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#35
Some of the best commentary on the fake pushback to Occupy from the genius of Jay Smooth's Ill Doctrine.

 

commiecorvus

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#37
Police attack demonstrators in Oakland critically injuring a Iraq war vet

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...nd-wall-street-clash-with-police/1?csp=34news

Also if you are interested, Rachel Maddow does a great job of comparing the OWS movement to the Bonus Army (a large group of WW 1 vets who marched on Washington DC and set up camps only to be burned out by the army) that came about during the Great Depression. Very well done and much more current then you might think.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/32307452#45055563
 
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#39
Being peaceful & respectfull is the key to this action. Otherwise, efforts become misunderstood, even with good intentions. Mistakes & stupid things will happen. Everyone got the hint?
 

talan123

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#40
Um, if somebody is driven off of this forum because of somebody's political views then they probably have other issues to work on.

I like the OWS movement but I don't think it's going to work. The one thing people in this country hate doing is giving something for nothing which, rightly or wrongly (wrongly) they have come to see the OWS movement. If I were at the meetings and I'm not, I'd start with describing what it is we are trying to accomplish. The movement is literally crying out for leadership right now, somebody who can articulate what it is they are trying to say. (First generation to do worse than their parents, crushing student debt, continued downward pressure on wages, lack of jobs for people without a college diploma, Lack of community support for future generations such as more supplies for school that do not depend on somebody's propaganda, upward pressure from grandparents retiring and needed to be supported at the same time as the children.)

To get a message across to the people, people need to know that there is something in it for them. So the message should be tailored around it. Something that everybody supports such as expanding people's rights.

  • The right of every American to have a roof over their heads and a meal.
  • The right to a clean environment or to be justly compensated (It's their crap and I should be paid for breathing it in.)
  • Children should have the right to be safe and secure.
  • You have the right to a working infrastructure.
  • You have the health care.
  • The right to reasonable credit fees.
  • The right to know your own credit score.

Other demands they could be making is accountability of Wall Street.
Those banks are now being backed up by federal dollars, not just their deposits but their actual investments which is a whole different ball of wax. That means we, as tax payers, have the right to force them open up their books to us because it's our money propping up their hideous housing investments (Bank of America is a zombie Bank). We need to know what economic earth quakes will be caused by their hideous books, their right to privacy ends when they start to affect the future of this country (Seriously, run from BofA because their balance sheets cannot possibly cover the discrepency from their lack of marking to market).

Now, here is the last thought I have...
Remind people that the free market can over power a government in a way that obliterates the government. Look at Greece, they are at the complete mercy of their creditors (German Banks) to the point that their elections make no difference in what happens. Sure they screwed themselves over pretty good but that doesn't mean the markets should rule over them, the markets need to serve us otherwise the people who make up the market are no longer part of the equation.

Once I start seeing this stuff in the news then I'll be less depressed.
 

commiecorvus

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#41
Um, if somebody is driven off of this forum because of somebody's political views then they probably have other issues to work on.

I like the OWS movement but I don't think it's going to work. The one thing people in this country hate doing is giving something for nothing which, rightly or wrongly (wrongly) they have come to see the OWS movement. If I were at the meetings and I'm not, I'd start with describing what it is we are trying to accomplish. The movement is literally crying out for leadership right now, somebody who can articulate what it is they are trying to say. (First generation to do worse than their parents, crushing student debt, continued downward pressure on wages, lack of jobs for people without a college diploma, Lack of community support for future generations such as more supplies for school that do not depend on somebody's propaganda, upward pressure from grandparents retiring and needed to be supported at the same time as the children.)

To get a message across to the people, people need to know that there is something in it for them. So the message should be tailored around it. Something that everybody supports such as expanding people's rights.

  • The right of every American to have a roof over their heads and a meal.
  • The right to a clean environment or to be justly compensated (It's their crap and I should be paid for breathing it in.)
  • Children should have the right to be safe and secure.
  • You have the right to a working infrastructure.
  • You have the health care.
  • The right to reasonable credit fees.
  • The right to know your own credit score.

Other demands they could be making is accountability of Wall Street.
Those banks are now being backed up by federal dollars, not just their deposits but their actual investments which is a whole different ball of wax. That means we, as tax payers, have the right to force them open up their books to us because it's our money propping up their hideous housing investments (Bank of America is a zombie Bank). We need to know what economic earth quakes will be caused by their hideous books, their right to privacy ends when they start to affect the future of this country (Seriously, run from BofA because their balance sheets cannot possibly cover the discrepency from their lack of marking to market).

Now, here is the last thought I have...
Remind people that the free market can over power a government in a way that obliterates the government. Look at Greece, they are at the complete mercy of their creditors (German Banks) to the point that their elections make no difference in what happens. Sure they screwed themselves over pretty good but that doesn't mean the markets should rule over them, the markets need to serve us otherwise the people who make up the market are no longer part of the equation.

Once I start seeing this stuff in the news then I'll be less depressed.
Very well written piece. You have pretty much captured what many of the people are saying at OWS but that isn't being reported.
They are accomplishing one thing very important which is getting people to talk about the role of Wall Street and the 1% in how screwed up everything is whereas before the elephants only had everyone talking about cutting the deficit.
 

talan123

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#43
glad I pulled my ************ out of BofA before this all went down....
Indeed.

That bank is staring into the abyss right now. It has been so incompetently run that the only way they can stay afloat right now is by lying about how much their crap is worth. Everybody has to pretend because the price is so freaking huge.

If the calculations are right that are being done at the investment banks (the other ones) then the amount that Bank of America could end up owing around one trillion dollars with only a few hundred billion to back it up.
 

redeye58

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#44
...which is why, after we had to move to 3 different banks in our early yrs, we settled on a credit union. The interest rates are low but we get lots of free services & there are plenty of locations around the area. Anything outside the area, we use a credit card or cash. Takes planning & discipline but we've managed to avoid fees for the past 15 yrs.
 

commiecorvus

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#45
Nov. 5 is Operation Cash Back.
Just walk into your bank tell them you want your money and why, then go set up an account at a credit union.
They really are a better option.
 

redeye58

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#49
Nov. 5 is Operation Cash Back.
Just walk into your bank tell them you want your money and why, then go set up an account at a credit union.
They really are a better option.
Better hope they have Saturday lobby hrs since Nov 5th falls on a Sat.
 
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