Archived CA to Raise Min Wage to $10

[kingpin003]

Since 1970, the bottom 90% of earners in the US have seen their average salary decrease while only those in the top 10% have seen higher salaries. That was my point. The baby boomers were just starting job hunts at that point and were accepting unskilled jobs. So there were more unskilled workers in 1970 and the average wage has still decreased. The middle class is shrinking. As long as the wealth generated is being funneled to those who don't spend it, the economy isn't going to change. Until corporate America decides to start paying their employees more and balancing that difference, the economy isn't going to change. Lowering the minimum wage is going to lower operating costs for the top 10%, but judging by the fact they've been spectacular at hording all salary increases in the last 33 years, you can't tell me they're going to suddenly start being generous.

 

[cihyfthedoor]

I can't imagine any combination of minimum wage abolishment and other laws and practices making things cheaper. Once companies taste a given profit level, they don't look back. And I will never, ever believe that housing prices for either purchase or rent will ever go down, even in the economy proposed unless I saw it with my own eyes. Boom and bust cycle is one thing, but lowering housing prices to match a minimum-wage-less market is something I can't believe happening. A bag of chips maybe, but not rent.

 

[kingpin003]

So after they start paying less, they'll start paying more?

 

[Backroom81]

The way things are now, as others have noted on the board, you see stores holding out on giving high scores on annual reviews in spite of an employee's performance. Bullshit, right? If the corporation knew that you could jump ship easily and find work with a similar competing store, they wouldn't be so quick to shortchange you.

Yet they do despite the turnover being much higher than it was 10 years ago. A competing company opened a property about 20 miles away offering starting positions almost 40% higher than what Target pays, we lost almost 2 dozen people to that alone (almost 1/3 of the store applied). Then at the TL meeting, the turnover spike gets brought up and the word from on high is "write more Vibe cards".

 

[masterspot]

All this justification for no raising the minimum wage is fine and dandy until you realize the cable is off, the lights are off and those meals you were going to prepare will now be the dinner of the garbage can. There is no reason that we don't deserve a higher wage. Yes, we are unskilled laborers and that doesn't deserve the kind of excitement that other professions get, but why should be treated so horribly?

 

[mxrbook]

All this justification for no raising the minimum wage is fine and dandy until you realize the cable is off, the lights are off and those meals you were going to prepare will now be the dinner of the garbage can. There is no reason that we don't deserve a higher wage. Yes, we are unskilled laborers and that doesn't deserve the kind of excitement that other professions get, but why should be treated so horribly?

As harsh as this sounds, you are being paid what you are worth...to Target. Businesses set a rate at which they feel they can attract employees and maintain a profit. Until Target no longer attracts employees at the rate they pay, there is no reason to raise the wage, is there?

 

[stateoftarget11]

All this justification for no raising the minimum wage is fine and dandy until you realize the cable is off, the lights are off and those meals you were going to prepare will now be the dinner of the garbage can. There is no reason that we don't deserve a higher wage. Yes, we are unskilled laborers and that doesn't deserve the kind of excitement that other professions get, but why should be treated so horribly?

As harsh as this sounds, you are being paid what you are worth...to Target. Businesses set a rate at which they feel they can attract employees and maintain a profit. Until Target no longer attracts employees at the rate they pay, there is no reason to raise the wage, is there?

Everyone here knows that I call it like I see it, so I will say I am forced to agree with you. Realistically, you don't even need a high school diploma to work retail. And let's be real.... it doesn't require any brain power to do the job of most TMs compared to "real" jobs.

But, with that said, people seem to forget that an employment relationship is basically a *contract*. That is literally what being an employee is. You go to a company, offer to perform some work for them, and in exchange they agree to give you something. (in this case, money) It is the same as a contract to buy a car. You agree to give money to the owner of the car, and in exchange they give you the car. It is a legal contract.

Here is the problem.... in damn near *any* other business deal, do you just walk in and sign the contract without any negotiation? Would you walk in to a car dealership and say "Hey, I want to buy a car. Put a contract in front of me and I will sign it right now without any negotiation."? Would you sign a contract that John's Lawn Service puts in your face for lawn services before you read it? Would you sign a two year cell phone agreement without modifying features? (data limits, minutes, etc) HELL NO!

But when it comes to jobs, people are willing to suddenly "take the deal" without any thought what-so-ever.

This is why the government has stepped in with a minimum wage.... because, yes, there are too many idiots/suckers out there who would agree to work for 10 cents an hour at Target. These same suckers/idiots would also be the first ones to apply for welfare and/or start breaking in peoples homes when they can't take care of their bills on 10 cents an hour. In other words, the government has a vested interest in a minimum wage because such people wouldn't fight for anymore money from their employer, so they would be in absolute poverty and become a detriment to society in general.

When unions were abundant in the country, there wasn't such a need for things like the minimum wage.... because that is essentially what unions do. *Negotiate* the employment contract between employees and the company. In other words, getting a fair deal. The same way anyone with a brain negotiates a car before signing the purchase agreement.

But now unions are pretty much dead and there are too many fools out there who say "I am just happy to have a job. I don't care how abused and exploited I am. I will take any job I am offered even for 10 cents an hour".

So let me get back to my point with all of the above now said.

Target employees (and retail in general) are worth about minimum wage. I will give you that. The problem is, without minimum wage they would be paid *less than they are worth* because too many of them would just take anything Target gave them. (which I promise you would be way less than minimum wage) We can agree that anyone - even high school drop outs with zero skills and abilities doing manual labor work - are worth at a minimum $7.25/hour. So if we get rid of minimum wage we now have a problem because people are being paid less than the minimum they are worth.

So should the minimum wage be $15/hour.... no.... but should there be more ways for employees to make more money as they become more valuable? Hell yes. That is what we as a society need to be thinking of.... how to open up the door to that for people.

 

[commiecorvus]

Is the cost of living higher because of the minimum wage or is the minimum wage higher because of the cost of living?

It's both, at different times, but they're both affected by other factors as well.

Also the lower wage is only for people under a certain age living at home, dependents.

Ideally. By raising the minimum wage, you're mostly cutting jobs for high school kids and you're making the company more prudent about giving raises to the employees that work to pay their living expenses.

I was talking about Australia, they have a lower minimum wage for kids who live with their parents which I actually have no problem with.
You also keep using the idea that minimum wage leads to job lose and puts the squeeze on small business but there are studies that show otherwise (which I did provide).

Would a sixteen dollar an hour minimum wage work there, no of course not.
Well. Why wouldn't it work there, if it would be such a cakewalk here?

You're talking the difference between a third world country and one of the richest countries in the world.
I'd like to think so.

I'd be totally down for organized labor if it were disconnected from the state. I'm not against the concept of unions, just their current incarnation.

Not sure what your buzzwords are in this context but I've seen 'disconnected from the state' these used to mean getting rid of any union paid by tax dollars which would include my wife as a teacher, police officers, fire fighters, EMT's, train operators, and prison guards.

Sorry, but I feel they all deserve representation both to avoid being fired for political reasons and to not be the first people to have their pay cut when the politicians want to make political points by balancing the budget.

Also 'current incarnation' tends to pop up in reference to 'right to work' which is usually a misnomer meaning lets dismantle the unions.
It's also used to complain about political donations, which are always a separate entity from peoples dues ( have to be by law) or being forced to join the union when you go to work in a union house (boo hoo, you get representation if you want it of not).

Oh, and my favorite, that they are jack booted thugs and criminals.
Hey, I live in New Jersey. Very familiar with every kind of corruption possible but that isn't the core of unions and most of the really bad stuff is long gone.

My grandfather told me stories about the days when you could get shot or beaten to death for being in a union so lets not talk about thugs.
Are unions perfect?

Nope, not by a long shot.
They are made up of humans.
But they are a damn sight better than the alternative.

 

[Backroom81]

You live in Texas though, so you probably have better opportunities than the rest of us, considering on where you live in Texas. Look for a better job, broseph.

Target is my second job, my main job pays almost 2.5 times what I make at Target. My current employment at Target only happened when household circumstances forced me to pick up a second job on the weekends. I needed it fast and since I maintained a good working relationship with my former ETL (still the best one I ever worked for), getting rehired was a breeze.

 

[stateoftarget11]

"What incentive does the government have to do this? Centralized economies in the past have shown us plenty of examples of governments with no qualms with their populace living in poverty. "

Ummm... the status quo? Why do you think the minimum wage exists right now if people would get it anyway? I know at my store they were still paying $6.50/hour until they were required to raise it to $7.25. This is the governments way of trying to raise people out of poverty.

"Again, you're not taking into account the lower costs and increased hiring by small business, which would offset any loss in wages on average. But I doubt our wages would drop that much anyway, if at all. After all, even most people working at Target are making more than minimum wage."

Yes, "more than minimum wage".... we are talking 25 cents more on average. And Target only does that so they don't get the reputation of being a "minimum wage employer". That's what Target cares about more than anything - their image.

"If companies seriously offered 10 cents an hour, everyone would be on government assistance, as there would be no incentive to work. Even though I'm against government dependency, I think what you're saying here is a nasty characterization of the poor. "

Dude, I used to be a TL. Don't try to BS me. I used to have TMs who would literally throw a temper tantrum and go directly to the ETL-HR when I scheduled them over a certain number of hours (within their availability). Why? Because "I'm going to be kicked off welfare because of you!". Literally. I had this happen more times than I could count. They want to stay under the dollar amount to get public assistance. Not saying all TMs are like this of course, but I had a damn good number of them.

"But plenty of people, in my experience, try to negotiate when offered a job at Target. Due to the state of the economy, they no longer have any bargaining power, and some do decline a job offer. So you're wrong. People understand the agreement, and many who are applying know ahead of time that they're not going to be paid a high wage. "

Ok, so there are some people out there who are not complete suckers. That doesn't change the fact that there are still countless suckers who take the first offer on the table. Again, I used to be a TL. I sat in on the ETL-HR offering jobs after I did the first interview. They were super excited to take the minimum pay. Some were so willing and eager to say "Yes" to anything to get the job I honestly think if the ETL-HR said "BTW, we require that you get your nuts cut off to work here. Here is the form to sign and the hospital to go to." they would have still said yes.

And you know what? I also used to give TMs their annual reviews. I cannot freaking tell you how many TMs used to jump up and down when I gave them 5 or 7 cent raises. Not. Even. Kidding. Literally super excited, smiling from ear to ear, when they got a 5 cent raise.

I remember very distinctly giving a TM a 5 cent raise who was an all star. This guy ran circles around every TM in the building. Was smart, hard working, literally had never called in or came in late even one day. He should have been rated an outstanding (and every TL in our meeting agreed). Unfortunately, our jack a** STL overrode him like most other TMs to an IE to cut costs. When I went to our STL later to protest this, our STL told me on the side "Don't worry. He is the kind of guy who won't quit over it. I try to give IE's to the ones I think won't quit and E's to the ones that might. Best way to minimizing turn over and maximize cost". In other words, the guy was a sucker in the STL's eyes and wouldn't do anything to stand up for himself.

I remember giving him his news he would get 5 cents and IE. He was so excited he could barely contain himself. I told him "Dude, honestly.... I hate saying this, but you are being screwed. We (the TLs) all know it, and I can't without guilt bull sh** you on this. Honestly, you should probably get a job that is going to appreciate your hard work and pay you more" All he said was "That's ok. I don't mind".

That guy is still at my old store, still a TM, and likely still getting screwed over. He could easily have landed a job paying twice as much with his work ethic and skills.

Some people are just suckers. As hard and rough as that is to say, it's the truth. Without a minimum wage, large companies would seek out those suckers. They would hire them. They would not hire anyone else. What's that? Won't work for 25 cents an hour? Ok, there are 10 people behind you that will. See ya.

 

[kingpin003]

Yay! Now we have anecdotal evidence for and against minimum wages!

 

[XploitedFlow]

I don't think I would mind if they told me I was getting bumped to 12.50 hr.

Even if I am still there when the next reviews come out and my raise is 1% as a result of the pay raise, it would still take me another five years to get to 12.50 even with an EX 5% raise (I was told our store gave zero O's)