Cleaning house of Team Leads

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Jul 8, 2011
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246
#1
Note: If this is a situation that MAY expose my store location, please delete this post.

So.
I was told today that they are getting rid of all the TL's that don't have degrees.
As far as I know, they already gave two of my GSTLS (both have been with Target for over 20 years), and a sales floor TL the "two week notice"
They were told "step down or leave"

I heard this from two different people who don't know eachother with different sources.

One source heard it from the actual GSTL and the other heard it from a Sr TL.

Is this....fair? Both GSTL's are old and this is the only job they can get. NO ONE will hire two old, broken ladies.

I don't know if it's my store, which seems, lately, to be the opening to Hell, or if other stores have heard this talk.

I dunno.
 

redeye58

Hasta Ba Rista, Baby!
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#2
At the very least, they should've been grandfathered in (no pun intended whatsoever).
At the very worst, also contingent on state labor laws, this could result in a class-action lawsuit.
Geez, spot....give us some breathing room in between these PR debacles!
 
Joined
Sep 23, 2011
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#3
That seems ridiculous. I understand wanting ETLs to have degrees, I think some exceptions should be made, but I get the thought process. TLs though? You're talking about an hourly position that... I don't want to be too specific, but it isn't exactly a job that's going to support a family of 4. A TL level position should not require, or even expect, a degree. Would it be nice if all TLs had degrees? Sure, but it's ridiculous to think you're going to get a bunch of college grads at that pay level, or at least ridiculous to think you'll retain them.
 
OP
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#4
If this is true, *knock on wood it's not* then we are screwed. Simply put. We have a newer GSTL who is in school for a degree so I don't know if they are gonna keep her or shove her to the side too.

I'm really hoping this is a nasty rumor. I don't want to train my GSTL's -____-
 

redeye58

Hasta Ba Rista, Baby!
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#5
I could see the requirement for an ETL, I could ever understand a requirement that a TL have 'some' college or be working toward a degree if they hoped to advance to ETL but, as nater pointed out, it would be delusional to expect a college grad to settle for a TL for even a little while for that kind of crap pay.
And they sure as hell should NOT attempt to make it retroactive.
I smell litigiousness....
 
OP
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#6
I'll keep you guys updated. I only came across this cuz I was scheduled as Guest Service and one of the GSTL's "called out" and I was shoved to GSA, and that's when I found out that they were doing this. Then on lunch I had another person mention it.
 
Joined
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#7
Hi everyone -

I have been a long time reader and have hesitated to post because I fear Target potentially retaliating for posting on here.

Still I saw this thread and felt I had to post because it is simply too important not to.

I can confirm that this is in fact true. I don't know if it is company wide or only a certain stores. (maybe by chance the OP and I work at the same store and it is only our store for all I know)

I started out as a team member six years ago then went from specialist to GSTL, and I am now a hardlines TL.

Last week I was pulled in to clerical by the ETL-HR and was abruptly told that Target policy is now that all TLs must have a college degree. She even printed out a job requirement list for TL's from workbench and sure enough there it was. Basically she told me that I was set to be demoted after 4th quarter.

Well the joke was on her because I actually do have a college degree - I just never felt the need to run around and rub it in everyone's face like an ETL. She seemed shocked when I told her.

Only problem? It is an Associate's degree - not a bachelors which is required for ETL. (but again, I am a TL not an ETL)

Basically she told me the guidelines she received were "not clear" and that she wasn't sure if an Associate's degree would work.... so basically she said my status is pending until she finds out. I was required to have my college transcript sent to her in the meantime. (yes, I actually had to order the transcript and have it directly mailed to her. She told me they would not accept anything else or any other method of delivery) So now my college transcript is in the mail to my store.

Now getting down to why I felt the need to post in this thread. Basically right now I am terrified for my job. I am hoping to god that an Associate's degree counts. The paper she printed out only said "college degree".... It didn't specify that it had to be a bachelors specifically.

I would very much like to ask if there are any other TLs on here who have been told this - and will an Associate's degree work to stay a TL?

I am just highly annoyed that she can't give me a straight answer right now because I would rather just like to know so I can start looking for a new job already if that's the way it is going to be.
 
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commiecorvus

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#8
Hi everyone -

I have been a long time reader and have hesitated to post because I fear Target potentially retaliating for posting on here.

Still I saw this thread and felt I had to post because it is simply too important not to.

I can confirm that this is in fact true. I don't know if it is company wide or only a certain stores. (maybe by chance the OP and I work at the same store and it is only our store for all I know)

I started out as a team member six years ago then went from specialist to GSTL, and I am now a hardlines TL.

Last week I was pulled in to clerical by the ETL-HR and was abruptly told that Target policy is now that all TLs must have a college degree. She even printed out a job requirement list for TL's from workbench and sure enough there it was. Basically she told me that I was set to be demoted after 4th quarter.

Well the joke was on her because I actually do have a college degree - I just never felt the need to run around and rub it in everyone's face like an ETL. She seemed shocked when I told her.

Only problem? It is an Associate's degree - not a bachelors which is required for ETL. (but again, I am a TL not an ETL)

Basically she told me the guidelines she received were "not clear" and that she wasn't sure if an Associate's degree would work.... so basically she said my status is pending until she finds out. I was required to have my college transcript sent to her in the meantime. (yes, I actually had to order the transcript and have it directly mailed to her. She told me they would not accept anything else or any other method of delivery) So now my college transcript is in the mail to my store.

Now getting down to why I felt the need to post in this thread. Basically right now I am terrified for my job. I am hoping to god that an Associate's degree counts. The paper she printed out only said "college degree".... It didn't specify that it had to be a bachelors specifically.

I would very much like to ask if there are any other TLs on here who have been told this - and will an Associate's degree work to stay a TL?

I am just highly annoyed that she can't give me a straight answer right now because I would rather just like to know so I can start looking for a new job already if that's the way it is going to be.
I would fight it if they 'decide' that it has to be a bachelors.
Unless the requirements specifically states which degree you have to have, your associates should be damn well good enough.
I suspect this is just part of their process for getting rid of all of the old timers.
I wonder what the next step will be?
Some kind of physical fitness test?
 
Joined
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#11
I do not have a degree. Basically I was told some time ago that the trend was to only hire TLs who had a degree because they need for those TLs to become Exes one day. Those same Execs need to be ready to move up to something higher. My HR told me it wasn't impossible but it was harder, even with my years of experience.

The job requirements say that a degree is preferred. I have never been made to feel that my job is in jeopardy by the STL or anyone else. And if they fired someone like me based solely on the lack of paper then I'd say they'd have the makings of a huge lawsuit on their hands. Before you panic, why don't you ask your STL if you can talk to them? The kind of answer you get will determine your response. I would certainly like to know if this is true myself. I plan to investigate this.
 
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#12
Lets say in certain stores, most TLs do not have a degree of some kind (whether they have a associates or bachelors degrees). Would they honestly fire/demote all these TLs, bring in new TLs and ruin how some stores on being run?

Lets say they fire/demote all but 2-3 TLs in the entire store (from a C volume store) and your store is one of the best in sales in your region. Would they really mess up the store groove/mojo just to have TLs with degrees? If yes, they should be realize they there will be a dip in sales in some areas and team moral will likely go down with some TMs
I am guessing this is why when she first told me she said I would be demoted after 4th quarter..... That way they can suck all the hard work out of us and get those holiday sales, then dump us immediately after the holidays..... That gives them a whole year to bring in and train new TLs. 1st quarter is usually slow as hell so it makes sense that is when they would hire replacement TLs.
 
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#13
I do not have a degree. Basically I was told some time ago that the trend was to only hire TLs who had a degree because they need for those TLs to become Exes one day. Those same Execs need to be ready to move up to something higher. My HR told me it wasn't impossible but it was harder, even with my years of experience.

The job requirements say that a degree is preferred. I have never been made to feel that my job is in jeopardy by the STL or anyone else. And if they fired someone like me based solely on the lack of paper then I'd say they'd have the makings of a huge lawsuit on their hands. Before you panic, why don't you ask your STL if you can talk to them? The kind of answer you get will determine your response. I would certainly like to know if this is true myself. I plan to investigate this.
I was not told that I would be fired - just demoted. Big difference.

I hate to say it, but a company has the right to move anyone to a new position they want. It is totally different than firing someone.

If it was something that they could be sued for then why did they get away with it when they changed all specialists to a new position?

My guess is that any TLs they demote will get the same deal as specialists - keep your pay, get a new title (team member), but no raises again ever.

I can't speak for everyone else, but for me that is still a deal breaker. I get 40 hours now. If I get demoted even if I keep my pay I am likely going to be like every other TM in my store - lucky to get 20 hours.

Also I don't mean to sound egotistical, but I would not accept the lower respect and responsibility that a TM has versus a TL. I worked my ass off to become a TL, and I will not start over again as a TM. Basically it would mean I have absolutely zero chance of having a future with the company at that point.

If they tell me my AA degree is not good enough I will not even give them a two weeks notice. If they think I am going to sit around all through fourth quarter making them money knowing I will be demoted in January they are going to be in for a big surprise. I am over Toys, Electronics, MMB, Sporting Goods, Hardware/Luggage, and Seasonal. My sales are green for the year and I have my departments running like clockwork. Hope they have a fun time replacing me in time for Christmas because I plan on taking off my badge, throwing it on the ground, and walking out never to come back the second they tell me I'm getting demoted. Literally that second I am walking out the door.
 

FrontEndKnowItAll

Former PFresh Assistant
Joined
Jun 15, 2011
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336
#14
Wow, at my store we still have an exec w/o a college degree, although, she is going back to school to finish up. She was grandfathered in and never had to have one. As far as TLs w/o college degrees... if this is all true there should be plenty of openings soon! :(
 
Joined
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#15
I was not told that I would be fired - just demoted. Big difference.

I hate to say it, but a company has the right to move anyone to a new position they want. It is totally different than firing someone.

If it was something that they could be sued for then why did they get away with it when they changed all specialists to a new position?

My guess is that any TLs they demote will get the same deal as specialists - keep your pay, get a new title (team member), but no raises again ever.

I can't speak for everyone else, but for me that is still a deal breaker. I get 40 hours now. If I get demoted even if I keep my pay I am likely going to be like every other TM in my store - lucky to get 20 hours.

Also I don't mean to sound egotistical, but I would not accept the lower respect and responsibility that a TM has versus a TL. I worked my ass off to become a TL, and I will not start over again as a TM. Basically it would mean I have absolutely zero chance of having a future with the company at that point.

If they tell me my AA degree is not good enough I will not even give them a two weeks notice. If they think I am going to sit around all through fourth quarter making them money knowing I will be demoted in January they are going to be in for a big surprise. I am over Toys, Electronics, MMB, Sporting Goods, Hardware/Luggage, and Seasonal. My sales are green for the year and I have my departments running like clockwork. Hope they have a fun time replacing me in time for Christmas because I plan on taking off my badge, throwing it on the ground, and walking out never to come back the second they tell me I'm getting demoted. Literally that second I am walking out the door.
Again, maybe this is just your store, maybe this is just your district, I don't know, but this would NEVER work. College grads (well CGs w/ a Bachelors) are NOT going to settle for TL pay. It's just not going to happen, at all, ever. Could some use it as a "transient" job? Sure. The job market is tough, working at spot for 6 months while they find a decent paying job, that's reasonable to expect, but it's bad business for spot. College grad's, outside of a few things like teacher's, expect to make roughly what the average ETL starts at. Is spot going to increase the starting TL pay to the level of an ETL? I doubt it. So why would spot assume they could retain these people?

I'm personally working towards my bachelors and I've made it very clear that when my degree is finished, I expect an ETL position quick, fast, and in a hurry. I'll give them a little time to find me a position, but they won't have much time to find me a better job, or I'll find one on my own. It's not that I don't like spot, I actually do, but at the end of the day I'm getting my degree to further my income and income potential.
 
Joined
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#17
maybe, who knows. there is definitely something up though. the way my store is pushing the college grads to be signed off at district, and no one without a degree can interview for any posted positions now. anyone else have confirmation of this?
 

FiFoMaster

The "Go-To" Guy
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#18
My store is doing the same thing. They started a program to introduce TM's to the TL world and only selected those capable of the job and who were or have completed a degree. Tis a shame >.<
 
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#20
Well I have spent pretty much all damn morning texting every TL I had a phone number for to see if anyone knows anything else. Sadly no one knew any more than what I had already been told.

I did happen to find out the reason for this, however.

I texted a TL I used to work with for a few years who got promoted to Sr TL and transferred to another store. Apparently what she has been told is that the company has noticed that ever since the recession started jobs have been so hard to come by that they have been getting away with forcing new grads to accept TL spots with the promise of "eventually" moving up to ETL. She says that this has been working, and now the company has decided that they can get away with forcing college grads to accept TL spots because so many of them have not been able to find better jobs. So now HQ has directed stores to replace TLs with college grads simply because they can. The guidelines her store got say that they are absolutely forbidden to hire non-college grads for TL spots unless absolutely no one else has applied and they have already offered the TL spot to every ETL that has applied. (which she says pretty much means TL spots will never go to a non-college grad again until the economy vastly improves and they can't get away with it anymore) She also says she doesn't know the exact amount, but rumor is the new grad TL's that have been hired in the past few months have been starting at around $15/hour.

She says she has already been told the same thing they told me - demotion after 4th quarter. So she is trying to get a management job at Wal-Mart.

Still no one I asked knows if the damn degree they want can be an Associate's or if it has to be a Bachelor's. If anyone here finds out please post for others who are in a similar situation to me so we can know. My ETL-HR has not said a word to me, and I don't even know if she even got my transcript she forced me to have mailed to her.
 
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L

Ludwig3

Guest
#21
So Target wants to replace hard working TL's with fresh face college grads with no experience? What a slap in the face to anyone who has worked hard to move up. I'm sorry, just because you paid X amount for a piece a paper doesn't automatically make you the best in the field. I know TM's who could walk circles around college grads.
 
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#22
So Target wants to replace hard working TL's with fresh face college grads with no experience? What a slap in the face to anyone who has worked hard to move up. I'm sorry, just because you paid X amount for a piece a paper doesn't automatically make you the best in the field. I know TM's who could walk circles around college grads.
A college degree, especially a Bachelors, is seen by employers (not just spot) as a sign of your ability to learn complex problems and dedicate yourself to a long term goal. It takes time, effort, dedication, and a certain amount of intelligence to get a Bachelors. None of that is to say it's a guarantee of success as a TL/ETL, or anything else down the road. Spot see's a college grad, even if not experienced in retail, as a great long term investment.
 
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#23
long term goal... nevermind someone who has already been doing the job perfectly for ten years. what a joke.
it takes money to get a bachelors. intelligence is marginal.
 
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#24
long term goal... nevermind someone who has already been doing the job perfectly for ten years. what a joke.
it takes money to get a bachelors. intelligence is marginal.
Perfectly? Really? Nobody does anything perfectly. Also, it takes money to get pretty much anything, so I fail to see how that's an argument for (or against) anything. What do you mean by "intelligence is marginal", you deny that a college grad, on average, is smarter than a HS grad? What about someone with a Masters? Doctorate? Obviously there are plenty of dumb, lazy, and unmotivated college grads, you can find a dozen of them w/o applying much effort at all, but you don't define the norm by the exception.

Heck spot provides money for TLs to go to college, free money, so why don't people take advantage of that? Obviously spot wants TLs to have degrees if they're providing money for it, so by not taking advantage of it, aren't they showing they're unmotivated? That they don't care to advance to ETL? Again, there are exceptions, but these are all logical assumptions and connections... ones spot has undoubtedly made.

I personally think it's a dumb strategy b/c it runs on the assumption that college grads will stick around simply b/c the economy is poor. Sure they'll take the job, but they'll jump ship the second they get a better offer, so instead of making a good long term investment, it's a set-up for high TL turnover.
 

redeye58

Hasta Ba Rista, Baby!
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#25
Our store stands to lose more than half our TLs if this is implemented. Many of these TLs have been w/spot for 10+ yrs, trained many new TLs & kept our store green.
Meanwhile, we have a few TMs that are 50+ w/college degrees that have been passed over multiple times for TL.
Crazy logic they got here...
 
L

Ludwig3

Guest
#26
A college degree, especially a Bachelors, is seen by employers (not just spot) as a sign of your ability to learn complex problems and dedicate yourself to a long term goal. It takes time, effort, dedication, and a certain amount of intelligence to get a Bachelors. None of that is to say it's a guarantee of success as a TL/ETL, or anything else down the road. Spot see's a college grad, even if not experienced in retail, as a great long term investment.
Spot might see it as a long term investment but if they're heart isn't into it, the position will start to fail and nothing will get done, compared to say someone who's worked there way into that position. (The case in my backroom) I just think it's a shady move by Spot. Not everyone can afford college, does that mean there lazy and not a long term investment, nope!

We had a great TL who worked for Spot for YEARS. New ETL came in and cleaned house and basically pushed her out, calling her "worthless". So we get a new TL carrying a Bachelors. Slowest member of our BR currently. He actually DIDN'T want to work for Target, but that's all that was hiring. Excellent logic we have here.
 
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#27
Why would anyone with a degree work for peanut pay? I did a survey with my other tl's today. Most of them don't have a degree, but lots of experience!
 
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#29
A degree is prefered but that is it. We have been interviewing for TL and no degree is required nor does it appear to even be an issue. Anyone with a degree who is a Team Lead is just treading water waiting for better job and most Team Leads working on dergrees are doing so to get the out of Target. And I know ETLs who do not have degrees and they are fine. Target does some stupid things but they are not going wreck the company hoping to hire people with degrees for low pay who will be looking for a better job the entire time. Not going to happen.
 

Rock Lobster

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#30
Just my opinion on this whole thing....

First of all, if I had to guess, this is just a random district out there with some weird freak hiring experiences! Most districts can't get quality college grads to stick around long enough to be ETLs, let alone trying to get them to be TLs beforehand for less pay! I am thinking this district is just paying pretty well for their area, and they are getting MORE applicants for ETLs than they have spots for (which is rarely the issue)... So that is the only way to do it (even though I totally disagree with forcing demotions on people without degrees... they need to instead change that districts goal to focus on performance of their TLs and set an expectation higher to having a bottom 20% or something... to speed up the whole process)
 
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#31
A degree is prefered but that is it. We have been interviewing for TL and no degree is required nor does it appear to even be an issue. Anyone with a degree who is a Team Lead is just treading water waiting for better job and most Team Leads working on dergrees are doing so to get the out of Target. And I know ETLs who do not have degrees and they are fine. Target does some stupid things but they are not going wreck the company hoping to hire people with degrees for low pay who will be looking for a better job the entire time. Not going to happen.
Couldn't agree more. The idea that a person is going to spend 4-5 years getting a degree, only to work as a TL is ridiculous. Target has to know that a strategy of getting them in as TLs is, at best, going to lead to ridiculous TL turnover, and at worst could destroy the stores this practice is implemented in. It's just a terrible, terrible idea. As much as some like to think so, Target isn't dumb, they do a pretty good job of running a profitable business.
 
Joined
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#32
My store is doing the same thing. They started a program to introduce TM's to the TL world and only selected those capable of the job and who were or have completed a degree. Tis a shame >.<
Yup that happened at my store. I was in that program but it was a waste of time since seniority was still the more important factor. I just got to do extra work for free.
 
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#34
That is just wrong. There is no need for TLs positions to require degrees.(this coming from someone who is working towards a second associates degree.)
 
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#36
One other thing I don't understand is how a college grad could have no retail experience at all. Did they really come this far without having a job yet?
Even if they were in some type if food service(whether it be in fast food or a real restaurant) I am sure most younger grads have had multiple jobs.

I thought it was a joke at my store when they hired an AP TL and one of our ETLs said " We are getting a new AP TL. Be nice to him because this is his first job." I curiously said "Oh his first job in retail/ap?" and the ETL said "no it is the first job he has ever had" :facepalm: I just stood there in silence. I think he was gone within a couple weeks and the excuse he gave is he couldn't handle it.
 

mrknownothing

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#37
I don't really see how a degree would help a TL anyways. I can understand why an ETL would need a degree, because they are in management. But all a TL really needs is knowledge of their work (through experience, not education) and leadership skills.
 
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#38
I don't really see how a degree would help a TL anyways. I can understand why an ETL would need a degree, because they are in management. But all a TL really needs is knowledge of their work (through experience, not education) and leadership skills.
There are very few jobs at Target that actually NEED a degree, as in accountants, pharmacists, etc. A lot of degrees (i.e. Bachelors in Business Administration) simply teach you concepts and basics, there's very little you learn that is actually useful in any real way (unlike an accountant, who learns vital things in school). TLs do have a decent amount of paperwork (think: Business walks, interviews, coaching/counseling), but I agree that the most useful things a TL can know are simply learned on the job, but the same is also probably accurate for ETLs, most jobs at DCs, even STLs probably learn 90% of what's useful for their job, while working their job.

The reason Spot would want TLs to have a degree, or be working on one, is the fact that you CAN NOT move higher in the company if you don't have a degree. You're stuck at TL forever. So if they hire someone who already has a degree, or is in their Junior year of college, that person has "upward mobility", they can fill an open ETL spot as soon as one is open, or when they finish their degree.
 
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#39
There are very few jobs at Target that actually NEED a degree, as in accountants, pharmacists, etc. A lot of degrees (i.e. Bachelors in Business Administration) simply teach you concepts and basics, there's very little you learn that is actually useful in any real way (unlike an accountant, who learns vital things in school). TLs do have a decent amount of paperwork (think: Business walks, interviews, coaching/counseling), but I agree that the most useful things a TL can know are simply learned on the job, but the same is also probably accurate for ETLs, most jobs at DCs, even STLs probably learn 90% of what's useful for their job, while working their job.

The reason Spot would want TLs to have a degree, or be working on one, is the fact that you CAN NOT move higher in the company if you don't have a degree. You're stuck at TL forever. So if they hire someone who already has a degree, or is in their Junior year of college, that person has "upward mobility", they can fill an open ETL spot as soon as one is open, or when they finish their degree.
I agree totally with you.

The only times I had ever wished my fellow TLs were a little more educated have been during annual reviews. Sometimes other TLs ask me to look over the reviews they have written. My god.... the spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc. was 5th grade level with at least 3 TLs in my store. (how the hell you can still manage spelling errors when using MS Word is beyond me, but they found a way) If you had showed the reviews to a high school teacher and asked how old they thought the writer was they would have said 8 years old. It was that bad. Still, they are damn good TLs when it doesn't come to writing.
 

mrknownothing

purveyor of things
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#40
The reason Spot would want TLs to have a degree, or be working on one, is the fact that you CAN NOT move higher in the company if you don't have a degree. You're stuck at TL forever. So if they hire someone who already has a degree, or is in their Junior year of college, that person has "upward mobility", they can fill an open ETL spot as soon as one is open, or when they finish their degree.
I never thought about it that way before...
 

redeye58

Hasta Ba Rista, Baby!
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#41
The reason Spot would want TLs to have a degree, or be working on one, is the fact that you CAN NOT move higher in the company if you don't have a degree. You're stuck at TL forever. So if they hire someone who already has a degree, or is in their Junior year of college, that person has "upward mobility", they can fill an open ETL spot as soon as one is open, or when they finish their degree.
This at least indicates that Spot is hopfeully returning to promoting within. The past yr we've had countless outside hires for ETL & I was tasked with training many of them in front end practices. It's hard enough learning leadership protocols but even more when you're also having to learn the company culture from the very people you'll be leading. It also makes it extremely difficult when you're being coached for not following best practices from someone who isn't even familiar with BP.
If Target is resuming promotions from within, it's a step in the right direction & they are correct in demanding that ETL candidates have a degree. To maintain continuity & upward trending, it would be nice if TLs were either working on a degree or rotated in depts so as not to be an obstacle for others moving up the ladder but it shouldn't be mandatory.
 
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287
#42
This at least indicates that Spot is hopfeully returning to promoting within. The past yr we've had countless outside hires for ETL & I was tasked with training many of them in front end practices. It's hard enough learning leadership protocols but even more when you're also having to learn the company culture from the very people you'll be leading. It also makes it extremely difficult when you're being coached for not following best practices from someone who isn't even familiar with BP.
If Target is resuming promotions from within, it's a step in the right direction & they are correct in demanding that ETL candidates have a degree. To maintain continuity & upward trending, it would be nice if TLs were either working on a degree or rotated in depts so as not to be an obstacle for others moving up the ladder but it shouldn't be mandatory.
I can't speak specifically to Targets hypothetical motivation(s) for hiring TLs w/ a degree (or one in progress), I don't know why this is happening (if it is), and even if I did, obviously I couldn't talk about it for confidentiality reasons. However, it simply seems logical to me.

If you've got two candidates for an open TL position, they're both smart, hard working, they've got a good attitude towards work and life in general, but one is a senior in college, the other has never gotten any education beyond HS... who would you hire? It's not that the guy/girl with the HS education is a bad fit, heck maybe they even have a better understanding of the business, but that college senior has potential for ETL, STL, and even higher, the HS grad doesn't. Hiring within is something almost all companies prefer, it makes sense on so many levels, the only draw back is pay, but even that isn't always the case. Requiring TLs to have degrees is a bad idea IMO, but preferring it? That just sounds like good business to me.
 
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
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#43
I can't speak specifically to Targets hypothetical motivation(s) for hiring TLs w/ a degree (or one in progress), I don't know why this is happening (if it is), and even if I did, obviously I couldn't talk about it for confidentiality reasons. However, it simply seems logical to me.

If you've got two candidates for an open TL position, they're both smart, hard working, they've got a good attitude towards work and life in general, but one is a senior in college, the other has never gotten any education beyond HS... who would you hire? It's not that the guy/girl with the HS education is a bad fit, heck maybe they even have a better understanding of the business, but that college senior has potential for ETL, STL, and even higher, the HS grad doesn't. Hiring within is something almost all companies prefer, it makes sense on so many levels, the only draw back is pay, but even that isn't always the case. Requiring TLs to have degrees is a bad idea IMO, but preferring it? That just sounds like good business to me.
I can see where you are coming from. I have noticed that with some of the "lifers" eventually they grow bitter and angry that they have not been able to move up..... so I can see why they would want to avoid that.

However, we are all forgetting about the Sr TL position. I mean, if you are a Sr TL you are pretty much an ETL. (and over time can actually make more than an ETL especially when you factor in the extra hours ETLs put in) So to say that TL's can't make it to ETL because of the lack of a degree is not actually true. SR TL/ETL... pretty much the same thing. Now of course you can argue TL's without a degree could never make it to STL or above, but in all honesty how many ETLs have you ever seen make it any higher than ETL?

I have been with the company 6+ years and in all that time I have seen absolutely zero ETL's promote above ETL. I have, however, seen a ton of them leave or get termed. And I mean a ton of them. ETL's might dream of being STL, but it is a dream that few ever even get close to obtaining. Let's remember that STLs usually make $100,000+ a year. It is not a position the company just hands out to anyone. Most STL's I have asked usually have a Master's degree in business admin or something equally impressive. (again, something most ETLs do not have) Hell, our last two STL's were external hires. Seems you've got a better chance of making it to STL if you come from Macy's than an ETL does.

Anyway - the point is the company starting to demand TL's have degrees on the basis that "one day they can make STL" is pretty much BS. But for Target I could see them do it. I can think of at least 5 really damn good TM's at my store that have been told "one day" they will make TL who have worked their asses off for years and are still TM's.... always being told TL is right around the corner....
 

Formina Sage💯

Probably still better than you at the stacker
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#44
I can see where you are coming from. I have noticed that with some of the "lifers" eventually they grow bitter and angry that they have not been able to move up..... so I can see why they would want to avoid that.

However, we are all forgetting about the Sr TL position. I mean, if you are a Sr TL you are pretty much an ETL. (and over time can actually make more than an ETL especially when you factor in the extra hours ETLs put in) So to say that TL's can't make it to ETL because of the lack of a degree is not actually true. SR TL/ETL... pretty much the same thing. Now of course you can argue TL's without a degree could never make it to STL or above, but in all honesty how many ETLs have you ever seen make it any higher than ETL?

I have been with the company 6+ years and in all that time I have seen absolutely zero ETL's promote above ETL. I have, however, seen a ton of them leave or get termed. And I mean a ton of them. ETL's might dream of being STL, but it is a dream that few ever even get close to obtaining. Let's remember that STLs usually make $100,000+ a year. It is not a position the company just hands out to anyone. Most STL's I have asked usually have a Master's degree in business admin or something equally impressive. (again, something most ETLs do not have) Hell, our last two STL's were external hires. Seems you've got a better chance of making it to STL if you come from Macy's than an ETL does.

Anyway - the point is the company starting to demand TL's have degrees on the basis that "one day they can make STL" is pretty much BS. But for Target I could see them do it. I can think of at least 5 really damn good TM's at my store that have been told "one day" they will make TL who have worked their asses off for years and are still TM's.... always being told TL is right around the corner....
My two cents, not trying to be argumentative. Two of the ETLs that went through my store have promoted to STLs. And an MBA is a relatively easy professional degree to get. Just saying.
 
Joined
Sep 23, 2011
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#45
I can see where you are coming from. I have noticed that with some of the "lifers" eventually they grow bitter and angry that they have not been able to move up..... so I can see why they would want to avoid that.

However, we are all forgetting about the Sr TL position. I mean, if you are a Sr TL you are pretty much an ETL. (and over time can actually make more than an ETL especially when you factor in the extra hours ETLs put in) So to say that TL's can't make it to ETL because of the lack of a degree is not actually true. SR TL/ETL... pretty much the same thing. Now of course you can argue TL's without a degree could never make it to STL or above, but in all honesty how many ETLs have you ever seen make it any higher than ETL?

I have been with the company 6+ years and in all that time I have seen absolutely zero ETL's promote above ETL. I have, however, seen a ton of them leave or get termed. And I mean a ton of them. ETL's might dream of being STL, but it is a dream that few ever even get close to obtaining. Let's remember that STLs usually make $100,000+ a year. It is not a position the company just hands out to anyone. Most STL's I have asked usually have a Master's degree in business admin or something equally impressive. (again, something most ETLs do not have) Hell, our last two STL's were external hires. Seems you've got a better chance of making it to STL if you come from Macy's than an ETL does.

Anyway - the point is the company starting to demand TL's have degrees on the basis that "one day they can make STL" is pretty much BS. But for Target I could see them do it. I can think of at least 5 really damn good TM's at my store that have been told "one day" they will make TL who have worked their asses off for years and are still TM's.... always being told TL is right around the corner....
I get what you're trying to say, but I think you're ignoring the numbers game that is promotions in any company/business.

Almost all businesses are shaped like a pyramid, the lowest level gets paid the least, tends to work most directly with the customer(s), has the most physically demanding job, they are the easiest to replace, the least qualified, etc. They're absolutely essential to the business function, but they are the bottom (this would be TMs). Next you have supervisors, they tend to be more experienced, less directly involved with customers, less physically demanded upon, higher paid, and have higher education levels both internally and externally (TLs). And it goes up and up to the CEO/President/Owner. The common theme, and why the pyramid analogy is used, is that there are fewer and fewer as you go up.

Look at your average Target, how many TMs are there? 80 at minimum? Maybe, 3-4x that at a high volume Super Target? Now how many TLs are there at these stores? ETLs? Only one STL, only one DTL.... you get where I'm going? For every TL position that opens up, how many TMs want that spot? How many externals want that spot? Not everyone can get it. How often does a TL spot open up? Now magnify that with ETLs, how many TLs and externals want that spot? Now look at STL, a position that people would readily move across the country for, how many ETLs are competing for that one open STL position?

Of course you won't see many ETLs move up to STL. It's a bit odd that no ETL you've come in contact with has been promoted, but it's not unreasonable. You're talking about dozens, if not hundreds of ETLs looking to take that ONE STL position. All have degrees, many are happy/motivated/strong workers, many have produced increased sales/performance, but only one can get that position. Now think about a DTL position opening? Every STL in the country is going to want that job, but only one can get it. How often is a DTL spot going to open up? It's a numbers game, only the best of the best are going to make it to STL in anything resembling a quick fashion and some pretty good ETLs will NEVER get a STL spot. It's not bias towards externals, it's not Target being mean, it's life in the business world.


Also, MBAs are pretty darn easy to get. I have several friends and relatives who have their MBA, the universal opinion is that it was WAY easier than getting a Bachelors.
 
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Messages
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#46
"Also, MBAs are pretty darn easy to get. I have several friends and relatives who have their MBA, the universal opinion is that it was WAY easier than getting a Bachelors. "

You have to ask where they got it though. Was it an online "school" like University of Phoenix? If you read about such schools many employers (not sure about Target) no longer accept anyone with their degrees because they have questionable accreditation. There was even a news article in which a journalist signed up for an MBA program at an online "school" and passed everything simply by cutting and pasting articles off the internet when turning in his papers. He even sent a pudding recipe in and got an A.

Try getting an MBA from a state university. I promise it won't be easy.
 
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
825
#48
A la Wikipedia:

[citation needed]
Ok, take your pick. You know University Phoenix, Devry, basically any other school you see advertised on the internet and TV is a scam, right? Everyone knows that. Tons of people tout a "degree" from these places, but they are not even accredited half the time. Real schools (i.e. University of Michigan) won't even take transfer credits from the places because they are not considered legit schools. You realize that these schools are all called "for profit" schools, right? And you know they are actually traded on the stock market and make tons of money for investors, right?

Here are sources from ABC news, CNN, PBS, CBS news, and the freaking New York Times all saying this. Um, need anymore sources? Watch the PBS videos. One school even went in and signed up mentally damaged veterans who had battle trauma and couldn't even remember their name.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/view/ Huge video documentary on scam for profit schools. i.e. Devry, University Phoenix, etc.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/educating-sergeant-pantzke/ Another video documentary on scam for profit schools.



http://higheredwatch.newamerica.net/blogs/2007/02/u_of_phoenix

"The New York Times says that "the relentless pressure for higher profits" has "eroded academic quality" and led to improper recruiting practices at the University of Phoenix. But in this regard, the university, which is owned by a publicly traded corporation known as the Apollo Group, is hardly alone.

Over the last several years, some of the largest publicly-traded, for-profit higher education companies -- such as Apollo, Career Education Corporation, Corinthian Colleges, and ITT Educational Services -- have come under scrutiny from federal and state regulators and have faced numerous class-action lawsuits by former employees, shareholders, and students over allegations that they have engaged in aggressive and misleading recruiting and admissions tactics to inflate their enrollment numbers, while providing academic offerings of dubious value.

The U.S. Education Department certainly found this to be the case in 2004, when reviewers there wrote a scathing report about how the corporate bosses at the University of Phoenix pressure and intimidate their recruiters to put "asses in the classes," including those of unqualified students."


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/05/eveningnews/main6838102.shtml


"Two years after graduation, Michelle Zuver doesn't know how her college debt reached $86,000. She was told the cost would be less for a criminal justice degree she says many police agencies don't recognize. Her degree came from Westwood College, a for-profit school with 17 campuses, reports CBS News correspondent Wyatt Andrews.

Widespread complaints like this - overpriced degrees, misleading claims, and an alarming level of student debt - led to some embarrassing revelations this year on the entire for-profit college industry, including Westwood. When the Government Accountability Office went undercover to investigate how 12 for-profit colleges recruited their students and found that every one - 12 of 12 - made deceptive claims and that four colleges encouraged fraud. In a video, a Westwood sales rep tells the GAO agent not to report a quarter-million dollar bank account in order to maximize his student loans."


http://edition.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/09/02/for.profit.college.debt/index.html


"Dane Lockman saw a commercial advertising Westwood College while watching late-night television. The then-29-year-old single father, with a budding interest in web design, decided he would be the first in his immediate family to attend college.

By October 2006, he was enrolled in the for-profit institution to complete a bachelor's degree in graphic design. To pay for school, he took out $40,000 in private and government loans.

Lockman says he earned A's and B's at Westwood, but he wanted to take his education further by transferring to Georgia State University in late 2007, a public school that is regionally accredited, which is considered to be the "gold standard" of college education. But since Westwood is nationally accredited, Georgia State University refused to recognize Lockman's credits.

Lockman says Westwood admissions representatives never warned him about the difference.

Today, he's without a degree or a full-time job and unable to pay back his loans. He says his savings are gone. His credit score is shot because of his student debt, and he can't get credit cards. His student loans will incessantly haunt him, even if he declares bankruptcy.

Lockman is not alone.

At least 750 former Westwood students and employees have come forward with complaints about the school engaging in deceptive recruiting practices that have left some students with an unmanageable amount of debt, according to a class-action lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Denver, Colorado, in August.

Some students, like Lockman, have also complained that the school failed to give them accurate information about future job prospects or whether their degrees would be recognized by other schools or employers."


http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/profit...igate-recruiters-university/story?id=11411379


"Ads for online schools are all over the Internet, plastered on billboards in subway cars and on television. The University of Phoenix, with nearly 500,000 students, is the biggest for-profit college. But some former students said they were duped into paying big bucks and going deeply in debt by slick and misleading recruiters.

"I don't want anyone else to be sucked in," said Melissa Dalmier, 30, of Noble, Ill.

The mother of three had big dreams to be an elementary school teacher, so when she saw ads for the University of Phoenix pop-up on her computer, she e-mailed them for more information. A few minutes later, Dalmier said she got a call from one of the school's recruiters, who she said told her that enrolling in the associate's degree in education program at the University of Phoenix would put her on the fast-track to reaching her dream.

But just a few months after Dalmier started, she said she learned the horrible truth: the degree program she was enrolled in would not qualify her to become a public school teacher upon graduation in Illinois.

"It was an outright lie. A bold faced lie," she said.

It's not the first time that the controversial school, which obtains almost 90 percent of its revenues from students paying tuition from federal aid, has come under fire for its recruiting methods.

The University of Phoenix was one of 15 for-profit schools whose aggressive recruiting practices were the subject of hearings held by Sen. Tom Harkin, D-Iowa. The Government Accountability Office sent investigators to for-profit schools across the country and found that all of them were misleading potential students.

"These schools are marketing machines masquerading as universities," said Steve Eisman, a renowned hedge fund investor who made billions betting against the housing market, at a recent conference and during his testimony before the Senate on the for-profit sector. "I thought there would never again be an opportunity to be involved in the short side as an industry as social destructive and morally bankrupt as the sub-prime mortgage industry...Unfortunately, I was wrong."

Benson Rawlins was considered homeless last year when he met two recruiters from the University of Phoenix, who gave three seminars at Y-Haven, a shelter for transitional men in Cleveland, Ohio, or in effect, a homeless shelter.

Rawlins doesn't have a GED, but said the recruiters had no qualms trying to sell him an expensive associate's degree. "


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/22/o...vulnerable-gis.html?_r=1&ref=forprofitschools

"A number of for-profit colleges have questionable academic credentials or lack accreditation accepted by other institutions. This makes it very difficult for students to transfer credits to other schools. Not surprisingly, for-profit colleges also tend to have a higher-than-average student loan default rate, which means that, in the end, the college experience there may hinder, rather than help, the careers and financial prospects of their graduates. "
 
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
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#49
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/16/o...d-of-accountability.html?ref=forprofitschools

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/09/education/09forprofit.html?ref=forprofitschools

"The Department of Justice and four states on Monday filed a multibillion-dollar fraud suit against the Education Management Corporation, the nation’s second-largest for-profit college company, charging that it was not eligible for the $11 billion in state and federal financial aid it had received from July 2003 through June 2011.

While the civil lawsuit is one of many raising similar charges against the expanding for-profit college industry, the case is the first in which the government intervened to back whistle-blowers’ claims that a company consistently violated federal law by paying recruiters based on how many students it enrolled. The suit said that each year, Education Management falsely certified that it was complying with the law, making it eligible to receive student financial aid.

“The depth and breadth of the fraud laid out in the complaint are astonishing,” said Harry Litman, a lawyer in Pittsburgh and former federal prosecutor who is one of those representing the two whistle-blowers whose 2007 complaints spurred the suit. “It spans the entire company — from the ground level in over 100 separate institutions up to the most senior management — and accounts for nearly all the revenues the company has realized since 2003.”

The complaint said the company had a “boiler-room style sales culture” in which recruiters were instructed to use high-pressure sales techniques and inflated claims about career placement to increase student enrollment, regardless of applicants’ qualifications. Recruiters were encouraged to enroll even applicants who were unable to write coherently, who appeared to be under the influence of drugs or who sought to enroll in an online program but had no computer.

Publicly traded for-profit college companies have recently been a target both of government scrutiny and whistle-blower suits. In 2009, the Apollo Group, which owns the University of Phoenix, the largest for-profit college, settled a whistle-blower case for $78 million. "




http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/27/education/27edmc.html?ref=forprofitschools

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/12/opinion/12thu3.html?ref=forprofitschools

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/12/opinion/12collins.html?ref=forprofitschools

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/04/education/04education.html?ref=forprofitschools


"Undercover investigators posing as students interested in enrolling at 15 for-profit colleges found that recruiters at four of the colleges encouraged prospective students to lie on their financial aid applications — and all 15 misled potential students about their programs’ cost, quality and duration, or the average salary of graduates, according to a federal report.

The report gave specific instances in which some colleges encouraged fraud. At one college in Texas, a recruiter encouraged the undercover investigator not to report $250,000 in savings, saying it was “not the government’s business.” At a Pennsylvania college, the financial representative told an undercover applicant who had reported a $250,000 inheritance that he should have answered “zero” when asked about money he had in savings — and then told him she would “correct” his form by reducing the reported assets to zero, a change she later confirmed by e-mail and voicemail.

At a college in California, an undercover investigator was encouraged to list three nonexistent dependents on the financial aid application.

In addition to the colleges that encouraged fraud, all the colleges made some deceptive statements. At one certificate program in Washington, for example, the admissions representative told the undercover applicant that barbers could earn $150,000 to $250,000 a year, when the vast majority earn less than $50,000 a year. And at an associate degree program in Florida, the report said, a prospective student was falsely told that the college was accredited by the same organization that accredits Harvard and the University of Florida.

And one Florida college owned by a publicly traded company told an undercover applicant that she needed to take a 50-question test, and answer 18 questions correctly, to be admitted — and then had a representative sit with her and coach her through the test. A representative at that college encouraged the applicant to sign an enrollment contract, while assuring her it was not legally binding. "



So, need anymore citations? That was the result of a 10 minute Google search. Can you imagine if I spent a whole hour? Everyone knows these are scam schools. Practically every news organization in the country has an article about it. Employers will not take degrees from these schools. That includes MBAs, Bachelor's degrees, Associates, etc.
 
Joined
Sep 23, 2011
Messages
287
#50
"Also, MBAs are pretty darn easy to get. I have several friends and relatives who have their MBA, the universal opinion is that it was WAY easier than getting a Bachelors. "

You have to ask where they got it though. Was it an online "school" like University of Phoenix? If you read about such schools many employers (not sure about Target) no longer accept anyone with their degrees because they have questionable accreditation. There was even a news article in which a journalist signed up for an MBA program at an online "school" and passed everything simply by cutting and pasting articles off the internet when turning in his papers. He even sent a pudding recipe in and got an A.

Try getting an MBA from a state university. I promise it won't be easy.
Nope, all the people I was referencing went to "real" schools. The reason, per my understanding, that an MBA is easier is not that the curriculum is easier, but that the general concepts and methods are similar to getting a BBA (what most MBA students have). Getting a MBA is something to be proud of, but it's something most business majors can do without extensive effort... at most schools.
 
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