Archived Promotions: Aren't they supposed to talk about them when they come up?

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talan123

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At our store, it was surprise to most of us that three people got promotions. Most of us didn't even know that they were even announced.

Isn't it company policy to tell the team members when promotions come up?
 
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I don't think they need to verbally do so, but they must at least post the promotions in a timely manner in a place accessible to Team Members.
 

talan123

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That's what I thought. This all took place while our HR person was out of the office and they changed the huddle times so Electronics people cannot attend them (10AM Huddles).
 
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At our store, it was surprise to most of us that three people got promotions. Most of us didn't even know that they were even announced.

Isn't it company policy to tell the team members when promotions come up?

Talan, it really doesn't matter man. They already know who they are going to promote. If they post it and you try to get it - even if they do an interview with you to amuse themselves - they already knew before the vacancy even existed who they were going to promote.

I wouldn't feel bad about it. Really, they just saved everyone wasted time.
 

commiecorvus

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We had one like that like that, "Oh by the way X is leaving and Y now has the job. Congratulations."
Gee, nice that everybody who might have wanted the job got a shot at it.
 
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I know but my lawyer wanted to be sure.

This has nothing to do with the law. A company is free to promote however they want to. There is no law that says a company has to post internal promotions before promoting someone. Now, if you worked for the government, that would be a different story.

The only exception would be if (and it is a big huge if) you can show it was done intentionally to discriminate on the basis of race, sex, etc..... which is pretty much impossible to prove unless they were so stupid as to tell people that.
 
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They also do not need to even post the position is someone else is already signed off and on the bench. For instance, if the last time a TL position came open and 5 people applied for it and three of those people were signed off by the DTL, the next two positions would not even be posted for. Hope this makes sense.
 

talan123

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I know but my lawyer wanted to be sure.

This has nothing to do with the law. A company is free to promote however they want to. There is no law that says a company has to post internal promotions before promoting someone. Now, if you worked for the government, that would be a different story.

The only exception would be if (and it is a big huge if) you can show it was done intentionally to discriminate on the basis of race, sex, etc..... which is pretty much impossible to prove unless they were so stupid as to tell people that.

Which is something that Target has done to me in the past. They were that stupid and were forced to rehire me and then they went back to the same behavior.

But it's not what I'm angry about, it was just the straw that broke the camel's back. What I am angry about is a recent visit where they told me that criminals come to Target because of our dusting. Let me explain...

I was literally kidnapped in our parking lot by someguy on Meth about 9 months ago. He took me and then used my cellphone to set up a drug deal after using it to check his food stamp money (thanks for that one, stupid government). Apparently $200 worth of food stamps was 5 hits of marijuana back then.

Our parking lot has been slowly turning into a heckhole. We had a crack in the siding of the cement on the sidewalk three years ago and there has been no money to fix it, would have cost $300 back then to fix but now the cracks go around the entire building with entire sections falling off. It looks like vaguely like Fallout 3. If they are judging me on security on dusting, don't they have an obligation to do the same to the building?

Now as for said individual, it's not like they didn't see this coming. I had warned them about this individual two times before this. The first time he was harrassing customers until somebody agreed to sign off on a return for him, which was some old woman. The second time was when he exploded at me in the store and was screaming that I was hiding our portable CD players (we didn't have one). He then claimed he had just gotten out of jail and he calmed down once another guest showed up. I told them that he was dangerous.

The point is that I just don't sleep very much since that visit. Every time I see the dust coming up, I'm taken back to that moment where I have no power and I am driving him toward something evil.

Sorry about not including this in the original context but I hadn't slept IN long while.
 

buliSBI

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At our store, it was surprise to most of us that three people got promotions. Most of us didn't even know that they were even announced.

Isn't it company policy to tell the team members when promotions come up?
Supposedly its policy to interview all TMs qualified for the position. I was never in my final years. Heck when I was hired on, I was told that Target promotes from within. TMs already in the store have priority over transfers and external hires. But that is now a lie.

I applied for several posted positions during my last 3 years. But neither me or any other store TM were ever interviewed. The positions ended up going to external hires, transfers, or hand-picked TMs.

There were a couple positions where they posted the position one night at TMSC. By the next day morning huddle, they announced the position was filled.

Positions are now given to hand-picked TMs that kiss up, drink the Red Kool-Aid, and do whatever they are told even if it isn't Best Practice. It doesn't matter if you are more qualified or senority anymore.
 

buliSBI

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I know but my lawyer wanted to be sure.

This has nothing to do with the law. A company is free to promote however they want to. There is no law that says a company has to post internal promotions before promoting someone. Now, if you worked for the government, that would be a different story.

The only exception would be if (and it is a big huge if) you can show it was done intentionally to discriminate on the basis of race, sex, etc..... which is pretty much impossible to prove unless they were so stupid as to tell people that.

Which is something that Target has done to me in the past. They were that stupid and were forced to rehire me and then they went back to the same behavior.

But it's not what I'm angry about, it was just the straw that broke the camel's back. What I am angry about is a recent visit where they told me that criminals come to Target because of our dusting. Let me explain...

I was literally kidnapped in our parking lot by someguy on Meth about 9 months ago. He took me and then used my cellphone to set up a drug deal after using it to check his food stamp money (thanks for that one, stupid government). Apparently $200 worth of food stamps was 5 hits of marijuana back then.

Our parking lot has been slowly turning into a heckhole. We had a crack in the siding of the cement on the sidewalk three years ago and there has been no money to fix it, would have cost $300 back then to fix but now the cracks go around the entire building with entire sections falling off. It looks like vaguely like Fallout 3. If they are judging me on security on dusting, don't they have an obligation to do the same to the building?

Now as for said individual, it's not like they didn't see this coming. I had warned them about this individual two times before this. The first time he was harrassing customers until somebody agreed to sign off on a return for him, which was some old woman. The second time was when he exploded at me in the store and was screaming that I was hiding our portable CD players (we didn't have one). He then claimed he had just gotten out of jail and he calmed down once another guest showed up. I told them that he was dangerous.

The point is that I just don't sleep very much since that visit. Every time I see the dust coming up, I'm taken back to that moment where I have no power and I am driving him toward something evil.

Sorry about not including this in the original context but I hadn't slept IN long while.
If that happened to me I would made the argument that the store is not providing a safe work environment and would take it to the papers and TV stations.
 

talan123

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It's getting to that point. But at least they are responding to the legal threats. Mysteriously, all of the promotions were undone and are coming up again for new interviews. That was not and never my point. The point was that this company desperately needs to reevaluate it's promotion process because it's a disaster. I never want to take another persons job they got fairly but rather I just want an equal shot.

Target is basing it's security on what's called the Broken Window theory. If a house has a broken window then it will be treated badly because everybody assumes nobody home. That theory is so archaic and useless they don't teach it in Sociology classes anymore beyond saying its useless. During WWII, the US Navy was operating under a similar theory: Send ships to patrol sea lanes and the Germans would learn to not go for those sea lanes. Sounded great but after losing about 1500 ships, the navy decided that strategy was beyond stupid and went to the convoy system. 30,000 Americans died disproving said theory. It's kind of catastrophic that they are still using the same theory to protect people.
 
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"It's getting to that point. But at least they are responding to the legal threats. Mysteriously, all of the promotions were undone and are coming up again for new interviews. That was not and never my point. The point was that this company desperately needs to reevaluate it's promotion process because it's a disaster. I never want to take another persons job they got fairly but rather I just want an equal shot."

Talan, I hate to tell you this because you are a nice guy, but the fact is your "equal shot" is long *before* a promotional opportunity even opens up. You have to be kicking ass and taking names, bleeding red and khaki, and running circles around every other TM *consistently* for *months or years* before a promotional opportunity opens up.

Contrary to what some (naïve) people believe, promotions are decided based on what you have done in your history with Target, not on "how you do at the interview". The interview is a formality - the actual proving ground is what you have been doing during the last few months/years.

Let me give you this example. You have Sarah and Lisa. Sarah has been kicking ass as a sales floor TM for the past two years. She knows every department, outperforms every other TM on the floor, has never been late, has never called off, has good people skills, etc. Basically, she has shown she kicks the ass of every other TM in comparison.

Lisa, on the other hand, has worked at Target for a year. She has called off a few times, knows a few departments, has ok people skills, and is an average TM. Basically, she would be an "ok" candidate for a promotion.

Now let's say a sales floor TL position opens up. All of a sudden Lisa kicks it into high gear two weeks before the TL interviews. She is doing a great job during those two weeks. She comes into the interview and absolutely nails it.

Sarah comes into the interviews too. She bombs them. Stutters on the questions, can't think of examples, etc.

Guess who gets the job? Sarah. Why? She has demonstrated she kicks ass consistently, has done it for two years, and has basically proved her self. Yea, she sucked at the interviews, but so what? As a TL, is she going to be standing around "telling TMs about a time she juggled several tasks?" Hell no - she is going to be doing more of what she had been doing before she got promoted - working her ass off, needing good people skills, and getting results. It doesn't matter that Lisa can sit in a chair and make answers to questions sound good because that is not what she is going to be doing once she is promoted. Nor does it matter she decided to perform better in her job two weeks before the interview. Why? Because that doesn't prove that she can maintain the level of performance needed in the promotional job consistently over a long period of time.

See what I am saying? Sarah proved herself long before the interviews ever started. Lisa did not. The interviews don't show who has what it takes to promote - your actions long before the promotion even opened up do that.

How does Lisa get the promotion? By praying to god that Lisa (or another person like her in the store) doesn't want it. OR kicking it into high gear and keeping it in high gear for the next several months (or even years) just like Sarah did.

This is the reality of the situation. You can sit around and think that "how you do at the interview" determines your promotion all you want - that doesn't change the fact the interview is a formality and your actual history at Target really make the decision.
 

Deli Ninja

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But, SoT, if the DTL visits and sees Lisa being "amazing" less than a month before the interview, Lisa gets the promotion because the DTL says so.
 
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"It's getting to that point. But at least they are responding to the legal threats. Mysteriously, all of the promotions were undone and are coming up again for new interviews. That was not and never my point. The point was that this company desperately needs to reevaluate it's promotion process because it's a disaster. I never want to take another persons job they got fairly but rather I just want an equal shot."

Talan, I hate to tell you this because you are a nice guy, but the fact is your "equal shot" is long *before* a promotional opportunity even opens up. You have to be kicking ass and taking names, bleeding red and khaki, and running circles around every other TM *consistently* for *months or years* before a promotional opportunity opens up.

Contrary to what some (naïve) people believe, promotions are decided based on what you have done in your history with Target, not on "how you do at the interview". The interview is a formality - the actual proving ground is what you have been doing during the last few months/years.

Let me give you this example. You have Sarah and Lisa. Sarah has been kicking ass as a sales floor TM for the past two years. She knows every department, outperforms every other TM on the floor, has never been late, has never called off, has good people skills, etc. Basically, she has shown she kicks the ass of every other TM in comparison.

Lisa, on the other hand, has worked at Target for a year. She has called off a few times, knows a few departments, has ok people skills, and is an average TM. Basically, she would be an "ok" candidate for a promotion.

Now let's say a sales floor TL position opens up. All of a sudden Lisa kicks it into high gear two weeks before the TL interviews. She is doing a great job during those two weeks. She comes into the interview and absolutely nails it.

Sarah comes into the interviews too. She bombs them. Stutters on the questions, can't think of examples, etc.

Guess who gets the job? Sarah. Why? She has demonstrated she kicks ass consistently, has done it for two years, and has basically proved her self. Yea, she sucked at the interviews, but so what? As a TL, is she going to be standing around "telling TMs about a time she juggled several tasks?" Hell no - she is going to be doing more of what she had been doing before she got promoted - working her ass off, needing good people skills, and getting results. It doesn't matter that Lisa can sit in a chair and make answers to questions sound good because that is not what she is going to be doing once she is promoted. Nor does it matter she decided to perform better in her job two weeks before the interview. Why? Because that doesn't prove that she can maintain the level of performance needed in the promotional job consistently over a long period of time.

See what I am saying? Sarah proved herself long before the interviews ever started. Lisa did not. The interviews don't show who has what it takes to promote - your actions long before the promotion even opened up do that.

How does Lisa get the promotion? By praying to god that Lisa (or another person like her in the store) doesn't want it. OR kicking it into high gear and keeping it in high gear for the next several months (or even years) just like Sarah did.

This is the reality of the situation. You can sit around and think that "how you do at the interview" determines your promotion all you want - that doesn't change the fact the interview is a formality and your actual history at Target really make the decision.

While I have never seen a poor perfomer get a position because of a great interview I have seen many cases where a great performer has lost a promotion to a poor interview. Man that causes some problems because they have been sold they are the next one and then blow the interview and it is pretty much over for them moving up. They tend to be bitter and then leave the company not long after. So yes interviews can effect things in particular when they are done by people outside of the store.
 

talan123

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"It's getting to that point. But at least they are responding to the legal threats. Mysteriously, all of the promotions were undone and are coming up again for new interviews. That was not and never my point. The point was that this company desperately needs to reevaluate it's promotion process because it's a disaster. I never want to take another persons job they got fairly but rather I just want an equal shot."

Talan, I hate to tell you this because you are a nice guy, but the fact is your "equal shot" is long *before* a promotional opportunity even opens up. You have to be kicking ass and taking names, bleeding red and khaki, and running circles around every other TM *consistently* for *months or years* before a promotional opportunity opens up.

Contrary to what some (naïve) people believe, promotions are decided based on what you have done in your history with Target, not on "how you do at the interview". The interview is a formality - the actual proving ground is what you have been doing during the last few months/years.

Let me give you this example. You have Sarah and Lisa. Sarah has been kicking ass as a sales floor TM for the past two years. She knows every department, outperforms every other TM on the floor, has never been late, has never called off, has good people skills, etc. Basically, she has shown she kicks the ass of every other TM in comparison.

Lisa, on the other hand, has worked at Target for a year. She has called off a few times, knows a few departments, has ok people skills, and is an average TM. Basically, she would be an "ok" candidate for a promotion.

Now let's say a sales floor TL position opens up. All of a sudden Lisa kicks it into high gear two weeks before the TL interviews. She is doing a great job during those two weeks. She comes into the interview and absolutely nails it.

Sarah comes into the interviews too. She bombs them. Stutters on the questions, can't think of examples, etc.

Guess who gets the job? Sarah. Why? She has demonstrated she kicks ass consistently, has done it for two years, and has basically proved her self. Yea, she sucked at the interviews, but so what? As a TL, is she going to be standing around "telling TMs about a time she juggled several tasks?" Hell no - she is going to be doing more of what she had been doing before she got promoted - working her ass off, needing good people skills, and getting results. It doesn't matter that Lisa can sit in a chair and make answers to questions sound good because that is not what she is going to be doing once she is promoted. Nor does it matter she decided to perform better in her job two weeks before the interview. Why? Because that doesn't prove that she can maintain the level of performance needed in the promotional job consistently over a long period of time.

See what I am saying? Sarah proved herself long before the interviews ever started. Lisa did not. The interviews don't show who has what it takes to promote - your actions long before the promotion even opened up do that.

How does Lisa get the promotion? By praying to god that Lisa (or another person like her in the store) doesn't want it. OR kicking it into high gear and keeping it in high gear for the next several months (or even years) just like Sarah did.

This is the reality of the situation. You can sit around and think that "how you do at the interview" determines your promotion all you want - that doesn't change the fact the interview is a formality and your actual history at Target really make the decision.


A few things...

1.) You are assuming the ETL/STL's are actually on their game. We have one ETL who ignores calls for the LOD, including 239 because he is "busy" in the backroom which kind of annoys us. I go weeks without seeing any of these people outside their offices so their "observations" are at best second hand and more likely third hand. Team meetings are gone so we have no way of telling them about job performance or any feedback really.

2.) The people they are hiring are great at their job. Our planogram team is, um, special at best. They literally steal all supplies that are not nailed down. I have banned them borrowing anything that has to do with cleaning from electronics because of this. Their new leader has lied to my face dozens of times about this. I have to beg them to help out when I swamped with guests and never seen a single sign of discipline despite numerous complaints by me and the guests. Finally, the ties they set are not real. We have a fake aisle set up in the system so they can dump anything they think is too much work onto it and just move on, this aisle has DOZENS of sections that are all in the computer. I discovered an ad endcap that was on this aisle after a guest asked about a product that should have been taken out onto the floor. Apparently they are just saying they are pulling the items.

3.) Severe lack of followup with other team members is killing me. As soon as the planogram team is done anywhere near my area, I am resigned to going over there and fixing their messes up. I have redone so many of the HBA section that it is now almost unrecognizable. I don't mean that I am redesigning what corporate does but they don't even move the peghooks so the product hangs correctly! It's not that much work. Meanwhile, after that, I have to go to the boat and find out what hasn't been accomplished by the rest of the team because they are that lazy or hungover. One team member who called in sick, came in, either hung over or drunk, to buy headphones. I came into a shift where a single cart was filled with items from: Pricing, Planogram, Backstock, Autopull, and signing. That's what I have to deal with, everyday.

4.) One thing that is being done to make sure guests are being serviced is that they are requiring us to ask every guest to help them find something at the restroom checkup. Now, that's incredible stupid for many reasons which include there are other times to help them within the hour, but I am already doing that! They want me to ask the guests that I just asked again, not for the sake of the guests but because they aren't aware of what is happening out there.

I realize that my store is isolated but I would think you agree that this process is fundamentally broken. There are two worlds going on here. The Target world view and the real world. Target is assuming the real world is already the Target world view when the two couldn't be further from the truth. What should be happening is the recognition that the two worlds are different, making decisions in the real world to try and make the two worlds overlap as much as possible. Until this is fixed then incidents like this and what others are complaining about are going to keep happening. Target looks to be seeing multiple different lawsuits from it's hiring and promotional process that have nothing to do with me. That doesn't spell optimal business.
 
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"1.) You are assuming the ETL/STL's are actually on their game. We have one ETL who ignores calls for the LOD, including 239 because he is "busy" in the backroom which kind of annoys us. I go weeks without seeing any of these people outside their offices so their "observations" are at best second hand and more likely third hand. Team meetings are gone so we have no way of telling them about job performance or any feedback really. "

This is irrelevant. It does not change the fact the ETLs/STLs have already decided on promotions.... only that in this situation they may make a poor choice using bad info. (IMO - ETLs would still have to be complete morons not to know who the stores all stars are)

"The people they are hiring are great at their job. Our planogram team is, um, special at best. They literally steal all supplies that are not nailed down."

Ok, so again, this doesn't change the facts in my original post. Only that a bad promotional choice may be made in this situation. The actual question here is, Talan, are you informing your ETLs about this behavior? If not, you can only blame yourself if one of these TMs gets a promotion.

"Severe lack of followup with other team members is killing me. As soon as the planogram team is done anywhere near my area, I am resigned to going over there and fixing their messes up. "

Again, are you communicating this to leadership? It always amazes me how TMs love to bi** that someone got promoted even though "I saw them do <blank> <blank> horrible things!" But guess what? That TM never told leadership before that person got the promotion. I dislike ETLs as much as anyone here, but you can't blame them for making bad choices if TMs are not reporting things they need to know about.
 

talan123

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"1.) You are assuming the ETL/STL's are actually on their game. We have one ETL who ignores calls for the LOD, including 239 because he is "busy" in the backroom which kind of annoys us. I go weeks without seeing any of these people outside their offices so their "observations" are at best second hand and more likely third hand. Team meetings are gone so we have no way of telling them about job performance or any feedback really. "

This is irrelevant. It does not change the fact the ETLs/STLs have already decided on promotions.... only that in this situation they may make a poor choice using bad info. (IMO - ETLs would still have to be complete morons not to know who the stores all stars are)

"The people they are hiring are great at their job. Our planogram team is, um, special at best. They literally steal all supplies that are not nailed down."

Ok, so again, this doesn't change the facts in my original post. Only that a bad promotional choice may be made in this situation. The actual question here is, Talan, are you informing your ETLs about this behavior? If not, you can only blame yourself if one of these TMs gets a promotion.

"Severe lack of followup with other team members is killing me. As soon as the planogram team is done anywhere near my area, I am resigned to going over there and fixing their messes up. "

Again, are you communicating this to leadership? It always amazes me how TMs love to bi** that someone got promoted even though "I saw them do <blank> <blank> horrible things!" But guess what? That TM never told leadership before that person got the promotion. I dislike ETLs as much as anyone here, but you can't blame them for making bad choices if TMs are not reporting things they need to know about.

I AM communicating this with leadership. There is nothing more than I can do.
 

Dr Laytex

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"Again, are you communicating this to leadership? It always amazes me how TMs love to bi** that someone got promoted even though "I saw them do <blank> <blank> horrible things!" But guess what? That TM never told leadership before that person got the promotion. I dislike ETLs as much as anyone here, but you can't blame them for making bad choices if TMs are not reporting things they need to know about."
How many times do you have to go to leadership with these problems before you get labeled as a whiner?
How many times do you have to hear leadership say, "We should look into that.", or "We have some things in place that will take care of that.", before you lock the doors from the outside and set the effing place on fire?
Or should we just punch them in the face?
 
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"Again, are you communicating this to leadership? It always amazes me how TMs love to bi** that someone got promoted even though "I saw them do <blank> <blank> horrible things!" But guess what? That TM never told leadership before that person got the promotion. I dislike ETLs as much as anyone here, but you can't blame them for making bad choices if TMs are not reporting things they need to know about."
How many times do you have to go to leadership with these problems before you get labeled as a whiner?
How many times do you have to hear leadership say, "We should look into that.", or "We have some things in place that will take care of that.", before you lock the doors from the outside and set the effing place on fire?
Or should we just punch them in the face?

If you are bringing legit issues to leadership, you will not be labeled a whiner.

Going to your ETL and saying "Sam is constantly trash talking the store and the company behind your back. This is destroying morale at the store. It would help the team and the store if he was talked to about this." is different than going to an ETL saying "My TL told me to get 3 baskets of stray done, and I already have to do the zone! Can you get him off my back?" In the first example, you present the problem, explain why it is an issue, and provide a valid solution to it. In the second example, you come off as lazy, don't actually present a real problem, and are putting your ETL in a bad position of being asked to partake in you going behind your TLs back.

In other words, there is a line between legit issues and BS. One will get you labeled a whiner, the other won't. The problem is, there are lots of TMs out there that don't know the difference between the two when communicating issues to leadership.
 
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talan123

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"Again, are you communicating this to leadership? It always amazes me how TMs love to bi** that someone got promoted even though "I saw them do <blank> <blank> horrible things!" But guess what? That TM never told leadership before that person got the promotion. I dislike ETLs as much as anyone here, but you can't blame them for making bad choices if TMs are not reporting things they need to know about."
How many times do you have to go to leadership with these problems before you get labeled as a whiner?
How many times do you have to hear leadership say, "We should look into that.", or "We have some things in place that will take care of that.", before you lock the doors from the outside and set the effing place on fire?
Or should we just punch them in the face?

If you are bringing legit issues to leadership, you will not be labeled a whiner.

Going to your ETL and saying "Sam is constantly trash talking the store and the company behind your back. This is destroying morale at the store. It would help the team and the store if he was talked to about this." is different than going to an ETL saying "My TL told me to get 3 baskets of stray done, and I already have to do the zone! Can you get him off my back?" In the first example, you present the problem, explain why it is an issue, and provide a valid solution to it. In the second example, you come off as lazy, don't actually present a real problem, and are putting your ETL in a bad position of being asked to partake in you going behind your TLs back.

In other words, there is a line between legit issues and BS. One will get you labeled a whiner, the other won't. The problem is, there are lots of TMs out there that don't know the difference between the two when communicating issues to leadership.

Um, wow.

We are in totally different worlds. I would have taken your first example as being bad for me, the TM reporting it, because then I would have been gossiping and Target has a no tolerance issue for that and, personally, I would have seen it as whining. While the second one I would have seen as whining but ignored as it was likely just some stress relief.
 
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