ETL confrontation!!

[snoboy8999]

Your profiling of sketchy characters, for whatever reason you find them sketchy, I'm assuming race or appearance, is not necessarily racism. It is the exact opposite of privilege.

 

[redeye58]

In jr high, select students were allowed to be office aides. We collected attendance, ran forms to classrooms, filed paperwork in the office, etc.
Our school system had only been integrated for 4 years so I was there when the first black student was allowed to be an aide. My mom worked in the office so I heard the story about another mom who was upset that her daughter was passed over for the black student (selection was based on grades & conduct).
When some fundraiser money came up missing, she was blamed first with a secretary ready to call her mother to "make things right".
The assistant principal talked with my mom & another staffer who observed another student who 'suddenly' seemed to have extra spending money. She was buying cokes & candy for all her friends after school so word had gotten around. He called her in; she confessed to taking the money & her parents had to cover the loss.
No apology was offered to the black girl who was accused & she eventually gave up the aide privilege.

When my first son was a toddler, I had a flat. I was just starting to change my tire when a black man stopped & insisted on helping me. His mother raised him never to leave a lady in distress, he explained. We chatted as he switched out the tire. Another car pulled over & a white guy in a suit hopped out asking if I needed help. I said a gentleman was already helping me. He asked me if I was sure. I said yeah, we're good so he got back in & slowly drove off. The guy who changed my tire refused payment until I told him he could just drop it in the plate at church.

Privilege still exists. It's a subtle undercurrent, not always based just on race.
You wouldn't notice or care if a Black or Hispanic secured a mortgage at a much higher rate than a white person.
You'd think differently if your car insurance rate was based on your zip code & you happened to live in an area with a diverse population.

 

[Barcode]

So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

What I had hoped was that at least we could agree on what we were disagreeing about.
That perhaps we could reach a common understanding on what the words we were using meant and why certain ideas weren't so easy to dismiss.

For example you asked what the racist cops had to do with you.
If they aren't in your neighborhood I suppose not much but if they pass you by to stop somebody of color even though both of you are doing the same thing than it it makes a big difference.
You just don't see it.

Nobody is fight racism with racism.
You can't.
Read the definition of the word.
If you try to adjust a racist system, that is all you are doing.
It's not (g-d I hate this term) "reverse racism", it's trying to fix a broken system.

As to your straw man argument about snipers.
Any commander will tell you that accuracy on a range is not the only reason you pick a sniper for a mission.
Though considering that one unit of marine snipers took to using a burning cross hairs with KKK as their insignia I'm guessing the number of blacks in their unit is probably nil.
http://www.duffelblog.com/2012/05/marine-scout-sniper-burning-cross-logo-raises-controversy/

So wrapping this up, you're right I probably can't change your mind but I hope that some of the things I've said might make you think about things a bit.
I lived a most of my life in a trailer court scrabbling to make it to the next paycheck so it's not like I'm coming from a place of wealth.
We need to keep in mind that our place is with our brothers not fighting them.
This is a class thing not a color thing.

Well reverse racism would be in fact whats happening if we're giving minorities privileges that MOST whites don't CURRENTLY get. I say MOST because we live in the 2010s now, and it isn't the 1960s anymore. Up here in the Northern States racism is pretty much extinct, and there is hardly any need for affirmative action, yet it is still there and ends up being unfair to white males.

We are arguing over wrongs that have been committed in the PAST (at least in my State), and its really pointless to keep playing the victim mentality for minorities; like they need some sort of special protection from us big bad white males. Its a very bad mentality to get into, because it breeds dependence and kills motivation/responsibility.

Some people who remember the civil rights movements might feel differently, and think these "protections" should NEVER go away, but in my opinion we're trying to fix something that isn't broken (and in essence breaking it ourselves).

 

[commiecorvus]

Well reverse racism would be in fact whats happening if we're giving minorities privileges that MOST whites don't CURRENTLY get. I say MOST because we live in the 2010s now, and it isn't the 1960s anymore. Up here in the Northern States racism is pretty much extinct, and there is hardly any need for affirmative action, yet it is still there and ends up being unfair to white males.

We are arguing over wrongs that have been committed in the PAST (at least in my State), and its really pointless to keep playing the victim mentality for minorities; like they need some sort of special protection from us big bad white males. Its a very bad mentality to get into, because it breeds dependence and kills motivation/responsibility.

Some people who remember the civil rights movements might feel differently, and think these "protections" should NEVER go away, but in my opinion we're trying to fix something that isn't broken (and in essence breaking it ourselves).

As someone who does remember the civil rights movement quite vividly I can say with some sadness that things have gotten worse in many ways and the some of the northern states are the worst examples.
My wife taught in an urban school that at one time had mixed races due to desegregation.
Those went away and now schools are more segregated than they were before.
Voting rights, early voting, and youth registration are being stripped back at an alarming rate and some northern states are leading the pack.
Before anyone wants to say "those are to prevent fraud at the voting booth", the head of the Pennsylvania Republican party admitted on tape that the reason they passed the law was to reduce minority votes.
Hell, in Florida where they sometimes have six hour wait times to vote people are not going to be allowed to use the bathroom.

Yes, some of the laws were put into effect to remedy problems from the past but it's been proven that the minute the laws are dropped the problems come right back.
This whole idea that there is a victim mentality and everybody is accusing "the big bad WM" of picking on them, ignores the reality that there are groups with very specific agendas who desperately trying to marginalize minority communities.
However, those same people don't have the best interests of the poor whites at heart either.

 

[Barcode]

Heck, its easy to vote up here in MN, you can register on election day too right before you cast your ballot. I'd say in my precinct I am in and out in 3-5 minutes, and that's with a line.

I don't agree with Voter ID, I definitely think it will cause smaller turnouts (which is bad by principle).

 

[Guest]

I think you should have to have some type of ID in order to vote mainly for recording purposes only. It's not about screwing over minorities or telling them that they can't vote. Just show some ID of some sort.

Affirmative action will always be fighting racism with racism. It says that minorities are stupid, weak, need the white man's help, and basically no matter what they do, they need help because of their skin color. It says that white people don't need help ever ever ever getting back together. But yeah affirmative action needs to go. Again, I will take quality, skill, experience, and talent over being able to brag to rich uppity white liberals about having a rainbow every time. If that makes me a Klan member, then guilty as charged. I run a company or organization, I want humans that have the skill, talent, will, and experience to get the job done efficiently. Humans should not be rewarded for being a part of a certain group. That is no different than signs that said "whites only" or "colored people". It's racism and people need to just own up and admit it. Let go of your past hatred and learn to get along despite differences. So yeah being the best or good at what you do is far more valuable than being a representative of diversity in my opinion. What do I know? I'm an evil white guy and my opinion on race is less. Yep, that's not racist at all.

 

[commiecorvus]

The problem with the ID's is they are making them have to bring in very specific kinds of ID's.
SS cards, veteran's ID, college ID, things that worked for years all of a sudden aren't acceptable.
A 85 year old woman who voted from the days when they shot black people people for registering to vote suddenly can't vote because she doesn't have the right kind of ID.
What they couldn't do with a gun they did with a little paperwork.

There are all kinds of federal laws that make employers who have federal contractors play by fairer rules than the rest of the world.
They have to pay men and women equally unlike the companies out here, they have to pay a living wage to the lowest wage earner, they have to hire the certain percentage of the disabled and yes, of minorities.
As someone who worked getting people with disabilities jobs I can tell you those jobs made a huge difference in a community that is horribly under served.

These things make a difference, they set a standard and give opportunities to people who otherwise wouldn't have a chance.
It's not a bad thing to give a deaf or blind person have a full time job so they aren't on welfare for the rest of their life.
These kinds of programs make this country a better place to live.

 

[Guest]

Why not reward people for their talents and skills rather than for their minority status?

 

[commiecorvus]

Why not reward people for their talents and skills rather than for their minority status?

Tell you what. when we stop rewarding people for being born to the rich, powerful, connected, and non minority than lets talk.

 

[Barcode]

The problem with the ID's is they are making them have to bring in very specific kinds of ID's.
SS cards, veteran's ID, college ID, things that worked for years all of a sudden aren't acceptable.
A 85 year old woman who voted from the days when they shot black people people for registering to vote suddenly can't vote because she doesn't have the right kind of ID.
What they couldn't do with a gun they did with a little paperwork.

There are all kinds of federal laws that make employers who have federal contractors play by fairer rules than the rest of the world.
They have to pay men and women equally unlike the companies out here, they have to pay a living wage to the lowest wage earner, they have to hire the certain percentage of the disabled and yes, of minorities.
As someone who worked getting people with disabilities jobs I can tell you those jobs made a huge difference in a community that is horribly under served.

These things make a difference, they set a standard and give opportunities to people who otherwise wouldn't have a chance.
It's not a bad thing to give a deaf or blind person have a full time job so they aren't on welfare for the rest of their life.
These kinds of programs make this country a better place to live.

They just need to start putting Personal Pictures on Social Security Cards, and make that an acceptable form of ID. Everyone has a SS Card (mostly), so it wouldn't be that bad. I'm sure they'd be able to think of a way for people to vote who lost theirs or forgot it/etc.

Long as they can do it without negatively impacting voter turnouts, I think it would be okay.

 

[Retail Girl]

That wouldn't be legal...giving someone who doesn't need it access to your SSN is the fastest way to identity fraud.

 

[Guest]

I just don't see why race is always brought up when it comes to being asked to show an ID for record keeping purposes only to vote. Isn't that racist for people to assume that minorities will be singled out? If you go with that logic, aren't you saying that minorities are lazy and/or stupid by assuming it's hard for them to get forms of ID or if they don't possess them? I think ID should be a must if you are voting. I don't care if you have a vagina or a penis. I don't care if you're white or black or gay or straight. If you don't have to show ID, what will stop you from voting numerous times at different locations?

Rich people aren't really rewarded. They have all the power. I don't consider that to be a reward since it's something you probably didn't earn.
Rich people's power over everyone else in America would reduce dramatically when two thing happens in Congress: term limits and no stocks. If you are only to serve a limited amount of time in Congress and are not legally able to profit on crap you vote for or against then greed will go down and regular folks won't be screwed as much as from the Richie Riches of society. A person that has a net worth of $450 million has no business serving in Congress in my opinion. Just sayin'. Yeah that's prejudice. You shouldn't be allowed to profit from your voting record in Congress. Sorry, no excuses or exceptions.

 

[Barcode]

I just don't see why race is always brought up when it comes to being asked to show an ID for record keeping purposes only to vote. Isn't that racist for people to assume that minorities will be singled out? If you go with that logic, aren't you saying that minorities are lazy and/or stupid by assuming it's hard for them to get forms of ID or if they don't possess them? I think ID should be a must if you are voting. I don't care if you have a vagina or a penis. I don't care if you're white or black or gay or straight. If you don't have to show ID, what will stop you from voting numerous times at different locations?

Rich people aren't really rewarded. They have all the power. I don't consider that to be a reward since it's something you probably didn't earn.
Rich people's power over everyone else in America would reduce dramatically when two thing happens in Congress: term limits and no stocks. If you are only to serve a limited amount of time in Congress and are not legally able to profit on crap you vote for or against then greed will go down and regular folks won't be screwed as much as from the Richie Riches of society. A person that has a net worth of $450 million has no business serving in Congress in my opinion. Just sayin'. Yeah that's prejudice. You shouldn't be allowed to profit from your voting record in Congress. Sorry, no excuses or exceptions.

Some good points. However on voting, your name is recorded when you show up to vote (they usually have a list of people registered in the precinct), or you register on the spot.. I don't think its as easy to vote twice as people think -- nor would most people (I can't imagine) even try. It is probably more likely that people who aren't supposed to vote (felons,etc.) are voting on other people's names (or dead people), something voter id would fix (but would need to be carefully and fairly implemented)

 

[Guest]

I think America should ease up on restricting felons from voting depending upon what they were convicted of. I mean if you were convicted of a non violent drug charge, why should you be denied the right to vote for the rest of your life? I can understand if you murdered someone or did something that was perverted or terrorism but I think there it should be a case by case thing. Your life shouldn't be destroyed because you had some marijuana or cocaine on you or you robbed a convenient store with a toy gun when you were 17 or 18 but no one got hurt or killed.
And we need to stop this whole automatic label of "criminal minority" mentality too. White people commit crimes too. Anyone can commit any type of crime in my opinion. It all depends on your mental state, conscience, and whether or not you are willing to risk your freedom for your crime.

 

[Barcode]

This thread:

I think its time to shut this down, good debates, but we're getting farther and farther away from the original point of the topic. Feel free to continue debate in Off Topic forums!

 

[commiecorvus]

A) The case for for voter ID is tissue thin.

In 2012 there was 633 cases of voter fraud in the entire United States out of the hundreds of millions votes cast.
This map breaks it down state by state.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ere_is_in_the_united_states_almost_none_.html
In Pennsylvania the state that I told you about where the head of the Republican party admitted that the only reason they were putting the law into effect was to make it more difficult for (older) black voters (who don't drive and have to get special picture IDs at DMV locations that are far out of their neighborhoods) is five.
You are right that is fucking racism.

Power is it's own reward.
They have decided that money is speech and the more money you have the louder you can be in our society.
The people who inherited their lifestyle can jam their power down your throat.
Their kids go to the schools they want, their kids don't face crippling debt because of it and their next job is your boss.

I like the idea of no millionaires in congress but I much prefer no millionaires or billionaires being able to buy themselves a congressman.
Term limits are a fine idea but they don't take into account how complicated the job is and that we would have a constant stream of people who would have no idea what they were doing.
That means we would either have the staff writing laws or even worse, as with some of the dumber lawmakers now, the lobbyists.