Archived No college degree Team Leaders.

[fastnfunnfriendly]

What will you guys do when AE 12 rolls out? On one hand I feel bad for some of these people who have been here for a long time and know what they are doing and deserve to be TL's. However on the other hand I've had some TL's who are just not very bright and have an attitude of I am better than thou even though they are not. My store currently has suddenly just hired 4 Senior Team Leaders, all with college degrees. We have 4 current Team Leaders with no college degrees and 2 of them did not even finish High School but they have been with Target for a long time. If I had to guess, the Senior Team Leaders will phase out the current batch of no degree TL's. I wonder if the demoted TL's get to keep the current pay and be moved to regular TM status?

 

[stupid rules]

That is NOT included in AE12. There is something big (good and bad) about team leaders in it but it is not that.

 

[fastnfunnfriendly]

Obviously as a Team Member in college who already has one degree I was hoping we did get rid of non-degree TL's. Getting a college degree shows that you actually have ambition to go after something and get it. Several of our TL's have not even graduated High School, 2 of them to be exact and you can tell when they write reviews. Honestly I have a hard time respecting these TL's. As time goes on, college degrees will eventually be mandatory. This is not a knock on some TL's with no degrees who actually work really really hard and know what they are doing and actually deserve to be TL's.

 

[stupid rules]

Oh look at the high and mighty team member with a college degree judging everyone else from his perch.

Look, some TL's without degrees do a great job and some do a horrible job. Some TL's with degrees do a great job and some do a horrible job. The same can be said for team members, both with and without a degree. The same can be said for ETL's with degrees. I am not going to argue degree vs. non-degree because it's a given that getting a degree can only be a positive. I will argue that just because someone has a degree it does not make them a better person, leader or worker. You can ask anyone who has been around long enough to go through a fresh out of college ETL or two.

 

[fastnfunnfriendly]

I stated in my last sentence that I was not knocking the non degree TL's who actually work and don't have an attitude. We have one TL who's been with Target for over 20 years and I respect the hell out of her. She knows what she is doing. She welcomes everyone and anyone who seeks her guidance and she is a total team player, heck if I ever become an ETL I would put my neck on the line to at least get to her a Sr. TL position even though those require college degrees now as well. I'm sorry if I offended you stupid rules. I know that you not having a college degree does not make you a bad person, a college degree shows AMBITION and DEDICATION. The true value of a college degree comes from the training and the commitment that was invested to obtain it. I ask you this, Target has programs that help TL's pay for tuition, why are they not taking advantage of it?

 

[stupid rules]

You did not offend me, it's just it reminds me of every time we get a new ETL who just graduated and has never worked before and they think they are the most important thing since electricity. As to why TL's don't take advantage of the tuition reimbursement I can't answer. It's a free 3000 every year. You are wrong on one thing though, the true value of a degree is the job it gets you.

 

[StateofTarget]

You did not offend me, it's just it reminds me of every time we get a new ETL who just graduated and has never worked before and they think they are the most important thing since electricity. As to why TL's don't take advantage of the tuition reimbursement I can't answer. It's a free 3000 every year. You are wrong on one thing though, the true value of a degree is the job it gets you.

Well, as a TL with an AA degree I can tell you that tuition reimbursement is a scam. The company has a little notation that mandates the class "has to be related to target and benefit target in your current position".

Now seriously, how many classes are there in college that are related to target (retail) and will be used in your current position? That pretty much knocks out biology, chemistry, information technology, physics, accounting, healthcare, etc. Basically it would only cover business classes, and not even all of those! So unless you are getting a degree in retail management don't expect them to cover anything.

I applied for it while I was getting my AA degree and was denied every time because none of my classes were related to Target.

As far as requiring TLs to have a degree - again, as a TL with an AA degree, I feel that is ridiculous. I mean for gods sake, Wal-Mart only requires an Associate degree for their assistant managers (their version of ETLs) and let's be honest, they are kicking our ass. Clearly a 4 year degree to be an assistant manager isn't the key to success in the retail world.

I know that the economy is so bad that they can get away with it, but it is still nuts.

Also I can confirm that the OP is correct. I had already been told I was going to lose my job as a TL because I didn't have a degree, only to be told I get to keep it once they found out I had an AA degree.

 

[stupid rules]

Well he may or may not be correct with them starting to require a degree (not in my district anyway) but I can tell you that it is in no way related to AE12.

 

[naterstx]

I was rather recently hired as a TL w/o having my college degree, so this idea that it is (or will be) a requirement just doesn't hold water. I'm working on mine and will have my BA in 7 months, but the fact remains that I don't have one now, and Spot hired me anyways.

 

[Hardlinesmaster]

I am taking no chances. I am stockpiling my docs & core roles, just in case. I do have an aa degree & heard nothing at my store. I think what "helps" is that we are so short staffed.

 

[IamLegendTGT]

@stupid rules.. What can we expect from AE '12 sInce you seem to have the inside track on it.. What might we see in terms of TL and ETL headcount

 

[Dr Laytex]

Why on earth would I need a degree to middle manage a small team of people at a high end dollar store?

 

[buliSBI]

About half my old store has degrees or currently enrolled in school. And the ones without degrees, work 10x harder than the ones who do.

To me, the whole degree thing is being used kick older TMs out and create turnover.

It just reminds me of the age-old quesiton...You need experience to get a job. But you need a job to get experience. In this aspect, you need a degree to get a TL job but you need a TL job to get a degree. You can not sustain yourself and afford school tuitition (even with Financial Aid/Grants) working as a Lvl1 with Target.

 

[RednTacky]

We just hired a TL that doesn't have a college degree too, in fact, I don't think she's even school. I get the paranoia about replacing TLs with people who are more capable, but I don't think degrees are one of their requirements.

 

[ISMQUEEN]

im a level one, close to 30, in my junior year of school, live on my own, no kids, no help, and im affording school. i got next to nothing in a pell grant, and i got about 30k to pay back after i graduate thanks to student loans, but im doing it so i can get the hell out of the bullseye. i dont think its necessary to have a degree to do a teamlead job, but it would be nice if teamleads knew the difference between their/there, to/too, and steel/steal. imagine my face when i seen a teamlead at my store write "there ambition is wonderful" on my application many many years ago. thats a great message to send to new employees. fast, fun, and challenged.

 

[dek067]

but its a silly argument.

some people are going to kick ass with a degree or without. i, like many i've met here, am kicking ass with/without a degree. the things you guys are bringing up (their v. there, to v. too, etc.) are second grade english classes. they don't cover this in college unless you have to take a remedial class. even then, a lot of people who've been to college still screw them up. overall, IT'S STUPID. if the team lead isn't pulling their weight, can't communicate effectively, etc. they need to be fired. don't lump them all together based on degree. grow some balls and fire them. that's like saying all high school folks are immature, old people are slow, and numerous other racial/political/gender stereotypes that one can use to make excuses for/against someone. if suzy comes in on time, runs her team effectively (within payroll budget) while driving sales, meeting goals, and having a good attitude, i could care less if she didn't graduate from the sixth grade at joe cool university. she still beats the hell out of the etl we just got, who spends two hours a day on her phone, an hour flirting with the stl, an hour checking email, and 45 minutes taking a break from her exhaustive texting.

oh, one more thing FFF. having a four year degree meaning you "stuck with it", but having no leadership skills or people skills means you will still be "stuck" as a tl until you get old and they decide to get rid of you. wishing they would fire all the tl w/out a degree is very cruel. it shows you have no compassion for these individuals who have to support themselves or their families. it means you are not seriously taking on the "engaging and inspiring" part of your core roles or showing initiative to help these poor lost souls improve. you cannot run a successful team without compassion. in the real world, everything is not so black and white.

 

[commiecorvus]

but its a silly argument.

some people are going to kick ass with a degree or without. i, like many i've met here, am kicking ass with/without a degree. the things you guys are bringing up (their v. there, to v. too, etc.) are second grade english classes. they don't cover this in college unless you have to take a remedial class. even then, a lot of people who've been to college still screw them up. overall, IT'S STUPID. if the team lead isn't pulling their weight, can't communicate effectively, etc. they need to be fired. don't lump them all together based on degree. grow some balls and fire them. that's like saying all high school folks are immature, old people are slow, and numerous other racial/political/gender stereotypes that one can use to make excuses for/against someone. if suzy comes in on time, runs her team effectively (within payroll budget) while driving sales, meeting goals, and having a good attitude, i could care less if she didn't graduate from the sixth grade at joe cool university. she still beats the hell out of the etl we just got, who spends two hours a day on her phone, an hour flirting with the stl, an hour checking email, and 45 minutes taking a break from her exhaustive texting.

oh, one more thing FFF. having a four year degree meaning you "stuck with it", but having no leadership skills or people skills means you will still be "stuck" as a tl until you get old and they decide to get rid of you. wishing they would fire all the tl w/out a degree is very cruel. it shows you have no compassion for these individuals who have to support themselves or their families. it means you are not seriously taking on the "engaging and inspiring" part of your core roles or showing initiative to help these poor lost souls improve. you cannot run a successful team without compassion. in the real world, everything is not so black and white.

this

There are way too many people working for this company who don't have the slightest understanding of how to manage people.
I'll grant you that the skills needed to do it properly take time and practice so the relatively young age of most of the ETL's tend to lead to them being poor managers but Spot should be taking that into account.

 

[invictustaylor]

I stated in my last sentence that I was not knocking the non degree TL's who actually work and don't have an attitude. We have one TL who's been with Target for over 20 years and I respect the hell out of her. She knows what she is doing. She welcomes everyone and anyone who seeks her guidance and she is a total team player, heck if I ever become an ETL I would put my neck on the line to at least get to her a Sr. TL position even though those require college degrees now as well. I'm sorry if I offended you stupid rules. I know that you not having a college degree does not make you a bad person, a college degree shows AMBITION and DEDICATION. The true value of a college degree comes from the training and the commitment that was invested to obtain it. I ask you this, Target has programs that help TL's pay for tuition, why are they not taking advantage of it?

Having a 4 year degree can also mearly mean that you came from a wealthy family who could afford to pay a university a lot of money to babysit you for four years while you were in a sorority and getting a worthless bachelors degree in something like business. Alot of times it is just a way to discriminate against lower class people. In my opinion, a degree only says a lot about the people who had to work full time and support themselves while they earned their degree.

 

[buliSBI]

I had a ETL-GS who had a BS degree in Environmental Science. Great leader...but what does it have to do with retail.

 

[StateofTarget]

I was rather recently hired as a TL w/o having my college degree, so this idea that it is (or will be) a requirement just doesn't hold water. I'm working on mine and will have my BA in 7 months, but the fact remains that I don't have one now, and Spot hired me anyways.

Dude, I was called in to the ETL-HR's office and straight up told I was going to be shown the door after 4th quarter when whatever the hell new policy they are rolling out is implemented. The only thing that saved my ass was the fact that I had an AA degree, (that they didn't know about) and I had to have my transcript actually mailed to my store. Every TL in my store with out a degree has been told they are being demoted to level 1 after 4th quarter and can either take it or find a new job. At this moment at least 4 TLs at my store that I know of and one Sr TL have already told me they are looking for new jobs at this very moment due to the fact they will not accept being demoted.

And before you start saying it's a cover to get rid of lazy TLs - I received an O - Outstanding on my last two performance reviews. (no, not excellent. Outstanding.) Clearly they like me and are happy with me. I don't know about the other TLs at my store, but I can tell you they are generally looked at positively.

My guess is that you are either at a store in a region that is not having this policy, or your ETL's just don't give a damn and are not going to give you guys a heads up about it like ours did. In which case you will have a very unhappy surprise come the end of 4th quarter.

At my store they gave the specialists a huge advanced notice (like two months ahead of time) that they were becoming regular TMs, but I heard at other stores in my city the specialists were not even told and didn't find out until they saw the new title on their paycheck. So I think the stores can pretty much do whatever they want as far as if they want to tell people these things ahead of time.

 

[StateofTarget]

Having a 4 year degree can also mearly mean that you came from a wealthy family who could afford to pay a university a lot of money to babysit you for four years while you were in a sorority and getting a worthless bachelors degree in something like business. Alot of times it is just a way to discriminate against lower class people. In my opinion, a degree only says a lot about the people who had to work full time and support themselves while they earned their degree.

Serious question - why are business degrees looked down on? I always thought they were considered better than liberal arts degrees? (better than history, criminal justice, political science, etc degrees)

 

[tellmeaboutatime]

I stated in my last sentence that I was not knocking the non degree TL's who actually work and don't have an attitude. We have one TL who's been with Target for over 20 years and I respect the hell out of her. She knows what she is doing. She welcomes everyone and anyone who seeks her guidance and she is a total team player, heck if I ever become an ETL I would put my neck on the line to at least get to her a Sr. TL position even though those require college degrees now as well. I'm sorry if I offended you stupid rules. I know that you not having a college degree does not make you a bad person, a college degree shows AMBITION and DEDICATION. The true value of a college degree comes from the training and the commitment that was invested to obtain it. I ask you this, Target has programs that help TL's pay for tuition, why are they not taking advantage of it?

A college degree may show ambition and dedication. It also may show someone who considered their 4 years at college a huge party. Someone has to graduate at the bottom of the class. Not all TLs are 20 somethings. Many of them are 30, 40 and even 50. It was rare that people in the 70s and 80s went to college unless they had some major $$$. Some of the TLs that have been at Target for years have the benefit of experience plus all of the instore training. They have already shown the dedication and ambition by working their behinds off to not only become a TL but excel at the postition.A person just coming out of college with their biology degree is no more qualified to be a TL than the seasoned professional. To your second point about tuition reimbursement, not as easy as it sounds. A TL with no degree but 20 years of experience working 40 hours per week raising a family simply may not have the time to take the classes. Also tuition reimbursment does not cover all class expenses, just a portion. Many of these "uneducated, unambitious with no dedication"TLs are using their paychecks to pay for their childrens college education, house payments, medical bills,groceries etc.
You did offend me. I am a Senior TL with no college degree. I have been rated O for the last 6 years, in 3 different work centers. I am dedicated and ambitious in all aspects of my life. A college degree was simply not in the budget in my family growing up. I am already paying for 3 college educations (my kids) I volunteer, I run a small business and I take care of an ailing parent. I do not have the time to take a college class to show I have ambition or dedication.The lack of a college degree did not seem to hurt Steve Jobs, George Orwell,Harper Lee,Sean Parker,Wolfgang Puck,Leandro Rizzuto,or J.K. Rowling to name a few people.

 

[TargetIng]

In my opinion, there will always be examples of people without a college degree that do extremely well, and there will be people with a college degree that suck.

However, that is just anecdotal evidence.

The process of getting a college degree helps an individual develop their own skills. That doesn't mean that they become better than everyone that doesn't have a college degree, it just means that in many cases they become better than they were before they had one. I for one, have found my college education to be extremely valuable in the ways that it has taught me to think about problems.

BTW, I saved up my own earnings in high school to pay for my college education without loans. To make it cheaper I finished 5 years of college in 3 years (my school charges by the semester, not by the class so taking extra classes doesn't cost extra).

 

[commiecorvus]

Serious question - why are business degrees looked down on? I always thought they were considered better than liberal arts degrees? (better than history, criminal justice, political science, etc degrees)

They're great, for people who want to put a minimum amount of work into their education and have the highest chance of getting a retail job.

We found that students concentrating in business related coursework were the least likely to report spending time studying and preparing for class. If one considers simply hours spent studying alone, undergraduates concentrating in business coursework invest less than one hour a day in such pursuits. Given such modest investments in academic activities, it is not surprising that business students show the lowest gains on measures of critical thinking, complex reasoning and written communication. The implication of these troubling patterns, however, goes well beyond these particular types of programs.

Richard Arum/Josipa Roksa Limited Learning on College Campuses

 

[StateofTarget]

They're great, for people who want to put a minimum amount of work into their education and have the highest chance of getting a retail job.


Richard Arum/Josipa Roksa Limited Learning on College Campuses

So basically a business degree is considered less valuable to employers than someone with a criminal justice/political science/philosophy/etc degree?