No college degree Team Leaders.

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Nov 5, 2011
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#1
What will you guys do when AE 12 rolls out? On one hand I feel bad for some of these people who have been here for a long time and know what they are doing and deserve to be TL's. However on the other hand I've had some TL's who are just not very bright and have an attitude of I am better than thou even though they are not. My store currently has suddenly just hired 4 Senior Team Leaders, all with college degrees. We have 4 current Team Leaders with no college degrees and 2 of them did not even finish High School but they have been with Target for a long time. If I had to guess, the Senior Team Leaders will phase out the current batch of no degree TL's. I wonder if the demoted TL's get to keep the current pay and be moved to regular TM status?
 
OP
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#3
Obviously as a Team Member in college who already has one degree I was hoping we did get rid of non-degree TL's. Getting a college degree shows that you actually have ambition to go after something and get it. Several of our TL's have not even graduated High School, 2 of them to be exact and you can tell when they write reviews. Honestly I have a hard time respecting these TL's. As time goes on, college degrees will eventually be mandatory. This is not a knock on some TL's with no degrees who actually work really really hard and know what they are doing and actually deserve to be TL's.
 
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#4
Oh look at the high and mighty team member with a college degree judging everyone else from his perch.

Look, some TL's without degrees do a great job and some do a horrible job. Some TL's with degrees do a great job and some do a horrible job. The same can be said for team members, both with and without a degree. The same can be said for ETL's with degrees. I am not going to argue degree vs. non-degree because it's a given that getting a degree can only be a positive. I will argue that just because someone has a degree it does not make them a better person, leader or worker. You can ask anyone who has been around long enough to go through a fresh out of college ETL or two.
 
OP
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#5
I stated in my last sentence that I was not knocking the non degree TL's who actually work and don't have an attitude. We have one TL who's been with Target for over 20 years and I respect the hell out of her. She knows what she is doing. She welcomes everyone and anyone who seeks her guidance and she is a total team player, heck if I ever become an ETL I would put my neck on the line to at least get to her a Sr. TL position even though those require college degrees now as well. I'm sorry if I offended you stupid rules. I know that you not having a college degree does not make you a bad person, a college degree shows AMBITION and DEDICATION. The true value of a college degree comes from the training and the commitment that was invested to obtain it. I ask you this, Target has programs that help TL's pay for tuition, why are they not taking advantage of it?
 
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#6
You did not offend me, it's just it reminds me of every time we get a new ETL who just graduated and has never worked before and they think they are the most important thing since electricity. As to why TL's don't take advantage of the tuition reimbursement I can't answer. It's a free 3000 every year. You are wrong on one thing though, the true value of a degree is the job it gets you.
 
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#7
You did not offend me, it's just it reminds me of every time we get a new ETL who just graduated and has never worked before and they think they are the most important thing since electricity. As to why TL's don't take advantage of the tuition reimbursement I can't answer. It's a free 3000 every year. You are wrong on one thing though, the true value of a degree is the job it gets you.
Well, as a TL with an AA degree I can tell you that tuition reimbursement is a scam. The company has a little notation that mandates the class "has to be related to target and benefit target in your current position".

Now seriously, how many classes are there in college that are related to target (retail) and will be used in your current position? That pretty much knocks out biology, chemistry, information technology, physics, accounting, healthcare, etc. Basically it would only cover business classes, and not even all of those! So unless you are getting a degree in retail management don't expect them to cover anything.

I applied for it while I was getting my AA degree and was denied every time because none of my classes were related to Target.

As far as requiring TLs to have a degree - again, as a TL with an AA degree, I feel that is ridiculous. I mean for gods sake, Wal-Mart only requires an Associate degree for their assistant managers (their version of ETLs) and let's be honest, they are kicking our ass. Clearly a 4 year degree to be an assistant manager isn't the key to success in the retail world.

I know that the economy is so bad that they can get away with it, but it is still nuts.

Also I can confirm that the OP is correct. I had already been told I was going to lose my job as a TL because I didn't have a degree, only to be told I get to keep it once they found out I had an AA degree.
 
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#8
Well he may or may not be correct with them starting to require a degree (not in my district anyway) but I can tell you that it is in no way related to AE12.
 
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#9
I was rather recently hired as a TL w/o having my college degree, so this idea that it is (or will be) a requirement just doesn't hold water. I'm working on mine and will have my BA in 7 months, but the fact remains that I don't have one now, and Spot hired me anyways.
 
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#10
I am taking no chances. I am stockpiling my docs & core roles, just in case. I do have an aa degree & heard nothing at my store. I think what "helps" is that we are so short staffed.
 
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#11
@stupid rules.. What can we expect from AE '12 sInce you seem to have the inside track on it.. What might we see in terms of TL and ETL headcount
 

buliSBI

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#13
About half my old store has degrees or currently enrolled in school. And the ones without degrees, work 10x harder than the ones who do.

To me, the whole degree thing is being used kick older TMs out and create turnover.

It just reminds me of the age-old quesiton...You need experience to get a job. But you need a job to get experience. In this aspect, you need a degree to get a TL job but you need a TL job to get a degree. You can not sustain yourself and afford school tuitition (even with Financial Aid/Grants) working as a Lvl1 with Target.
 
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#14
We just hired a TL that doesn't have a college degree too, in fact, I don't think she's even school. I get the paranoia about replacing TLs with people who are more capable, but I don't think degrees are one of their requirements.
 
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#15
im a level one, close to 30, in my junior year of school, live on my own, no kids, no help, and im affording school. i got next to nothing in a pell grant, and i got about 30k to pay back after i graduate thanks to student loans, but im doing it so i can get the hell out of the bullseye. i dont think its necessary to have a degree to do a teamlead job, but it would be nice if teamleads knew the difference between their/there, to/too, and steel/steal. imagine my face when i seen a teamlead at my store write "there ambition is wonderful" on my application many many years ago. thats a great message to send to new employees. fast, fun, and challenged.
 
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#16
but its a silly argument.

some people are going to kick ass with a degree or without. i, like many i've met here, am kicking ass with/without a degree. the things you guys are bringing up (their v. there, to v. too, etc.) are second grade english classes. they don't cover this in college unless you have to take a remedial class. even then, a lot of people who've been to college still screw them up. overall, IT'S STUPID. if the team lead isn't pulling their weight, can't communicate effectively, etc. they need to be fired. don't lump them all together based on degree. grow some balls and fire them. that's like saying all high school folks are immature, old people are slow, and numerous other racial/political/gender stereotypes that one can use to make excuses for/against someone. if suzy comes in on time, runs her team effectively (within payroll budget) while driving sales, meeting goals, and having a good attitude, i could care less if she didn't graduate from the sixth grade at joe cool university. she still beats the hell out of the etl we just got, who spends two hours a day on her phone, an hour flirting with the stl, an hour checking email, and 45 minutes taking a break from her exhaustive texting.

oh, one more thing FFF. having a four year degree meaning you "stuck with it", but having no leadership skills or people skills means you will still be "stuck" as a tl until you get old and they decide to get rid of you. wishing they would fire all the tl w/out a degree is very cruel. it shows you have no compassion for these individuals who have to support themselves or their families. it means you are not seriously taking on the "engaging and inspiring" part of your core roles or showing initiative to help these poor lost souls improve. you cannot run a successful team without compassion. in the real world, everything is not so black and white.
 
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commiecorvus

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#17
but its a silly argument.

some people are going to kick ass with a degree or without. i, like many i've met here, am kicking ass with/without a degree. the things you guys are bringing up (their v. there, to v. too, etc.) are second grade english classes. they don't cover this in college unless you have to take a remedial class. even then, a lot of people who've been to college still screw them up. overall, IT'S STUPID. if the team lead isn't pulling their weight, can't communicate effectively, etc. they need to be fired. don't lump them all together based on degree. grow some balls and fire them. that's like saying all high school folks are immature, old people are slow, and numerous other racial/political/gender stereotypes that one can use to make excuses for/against someone. if suzy comes in on time, runs her team effectively (within payroll budget) while driving sales, meeting goals, and having a good attitude, i could care less if she didn't graduate from the sixth grade at joe cool university. she still beats the hell out of the etl we just got, who spends two hours a day on her phone, an hour flirting with the stl, an hour checking email, and 45 minutes taking a break from her exhaustive texting.

oh, one more thing FFF. having a four year degree meaning you "stuck with it", but having no leadership skills or people skills means you will still be "stuck" as a tl until you get old and they decide to get rid of you. wishing they would fire all the tl w/out a degree is very cruel. it shows you have no compassion for these individuals who have to support themselves or their families. it means you are not seriously taking on the "engaging and inspiring" part of your core roles or showing initiative to help these poor lost souls improve. you cannot run a successful team without compassion. in the real world, everything is not so black and white.
this

There are way too many people working for this company who don't have the slightest understanding of how to manage people.
I'll grant you that the skills needed to do it properly take time and practice so the relatively young age of most of the ETL's tend to lead to them being poor managers but Spot should be taking that into account.
 
Joined
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#18
I stated in my last sentence that I was not knocking the non degree TL's who actually work and don't have an attitude. We have one TL who's been with Target for over 20 years and I respect the hell out of her. She knows what she is doing. She welcomes everyone and anyone who seeks her guidance and she is a total team player, heck if I ever become an ETL I would put my neck on the line to at least get to her a Sr. TL position even though those require college degrees now as well. I'm sorry if I offended you stupid rules. I know that you not having a college degree does not make you a bad person, a college degree shows AMBITION and DEDICATION. The true value of a college degree comes from the training and the commitment that was invested to obtain it. I ask you this, Target has programs that help TL's pay for tuition, why are they not taking advantage of it?
Having a 4 year degree can also mearly mean that you came from a wealthy family who could afford to pay a university a lot of money to babysit you for four years while you were in a sorority and getting a worthless bachelors degree in something like business. Alot of times it is just a way to discriminate against lower class people. In my opinion, a degree only says a lot about the people who had to work full time and support themselves while they earned their degree.
 

buliSBI

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#19
I had a ETL-GS who had a BS degree in Environmental Science. Great leader...but what does it have to do with retail.
 
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#20
I was rather recently hired as a TL w/o having my college degree, so this idea that it is (or will be) a requirement just doesn't hold water. I'm working on mine and will have my BA in 7 months, but the fact remains that I don't have one now, and Spot hired me anyways.
Dude, I was called in to the ETL-HR's office and straight up told I was going to be shown the door after 4th quarter when whatever the hell new policy they are rolling out is implemented. The only thing that saved my ass was the fact that I had an AA degree, (that they didn't know about) and I had to have my transcript actually mailed to my store. Every TL in my store with out a degree has been told they are being demoted to level 1 after 4th quarter and can either take it or find a new job. At this moment at least 4 TLs at my store that I know of and one Sr TL have already told me they are looking for new jobs at this very moment due to the fact they will not accept being demoted.

And before you start saying it's a cover to get rid of lazy TLs - I received an O - Outstanding on my last two performance reviews. (no, not excellent. Outstanding.) Clearly they like me and are happy with me. I don't know about the other TLs at my store, but I can tell you they are generally looked at positively.

My guess is that you are either at a store in a region that is not having this policy, or your ETL's just don't give a damn and are not going to give you guys a heads up about it like ours did. In which case you will have a very unhappy surprise come the end of 4th quarter.

At my store they gave the specialists a huge advanced notice (like two months ahead of time) that they were becoming regular TMs, but I heard at other stores in my city the specialists were not even told and didn't find out until they saw the new title on their paycheck. So I think the stores can pretty much do whatever they want as far as if they want to tell people these things ahead of time.
 
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#21
Having a 4 year degree can also mearly mean that you came from a wealthy family who could afford to pay a university a lot of money to babysit you for four years while you were in a sorority and getting a worthless bachelors degree in something like business. Alot of times it is just a way to discriminate against lower class people. In my opinion, a degree only says a lot about the people who had to work full time and support themselves while they earned their degree.
Serious question - why are business degrees looked down on? I always thought they were considered better than liberal arts degrees? (better than history, criminal justice, political science, etc degrees)
 
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#22
I stated in my last sentence that I was not knocking the non degree TL's who actually work and don't have an attitude. We have one TL who's been with Target for over 20 years and I respect the hell out of her. She knows what she is doing. She welcomes everyone and anyone who seeks her guidance and she is a total team player, heck if I ever become an ETL I would put my neck on the line to at least get to her a Sr. TL position even though those require college degrees now as well. I'm sorry if I offended you stupid rules. I know that you not having a college degree does not make you a bad person, a college degree shows AMBITION and DEDICATION. The true value of a college degree comes from the training and the commitment that was invested to obtain it. I ask you this, Target has programs that help TL's pay for tuition, why are they not taking advantage of it?
A college degree may show ambition and dedication. It also may show someone who considered their 4 years at college a huge party. Someone has to graduate at the bottom of the class. Not all TLs are 20 somethings. Many of them are 30, 40 and even 50. It was rare that people in the 70s and 80s went to college unless they had some major $$$. Some of the TLs that have been at Target for years have the benefit of experience plus all of the instore training. They have already shown the dedication and ambition by working their behinds off to not only become a TL but excel at the postition.A person just coming out of college with their biology degree is no more qualified to be a TL than the seasoned professional. To your second point about tuition reimbursement, not as easy as it sounds. A TL with no degree but 20 years of experience working 40 hours per week raising a family simply may not have the time to take the classes. Also tuition reimbursment does not cover all class expenses, just a portion. Many of these "uneducated, unambitious with no dedication"TLs are using their paychecks to pay for their childrens college education, house payments, medical bills,groceries etc.
You did offend me. I am a Senior TL with no college degree. I have been rated O for the last 6 years, in 3 different work centers. I am dedicated and ambitious in all aspects of my life. A college degree was simply not in the budget in my family growing up. I am already paying for 3 college educations (my kids) I volunteer, I run a small business and I take care of an ailing parent. I do not have the time to take a college class to show I have ambition or dedication.The lack of a college degree did not seem to hurt Steve Jobs, George Orwell,Harper Lee,Sean Parker,Wolfgang Puck,Leandro Rizzuto,or J.K. Rowling to name a few people.
 
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#23
In my opinion, there will always be examples of people without a college degree that do extremely well, and there will be people with a college degree that suck.

However, that is just anecdotal evidence.

The process of getting a college degree helps an individual develop their own skills. That doesn't mean that they become better than everyone that doesn't have a college degree, it just means that in many cases they become better than they were before they had one. I for one, have found my college education to be extremely valuable in the ways that it has taught me to think about problems.

BTW, I saved up my own earnings in high school to pay for my college education without loans. To make it cheaper I finished 5 years of college in 3 years (my school charges by the semester, not by the class so taking extra classes doesn't cost extra).
 

commiecorvus

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#24
Serious question - why are business degrees looked down on? I always thought they were considered better than liberal arts degrees? (better than history, criminal justice, political science, etc degrees)
They're great, for people who want to put a minimum amount of work into their education and have the highest chance of getting a retail job.

We found that students concentrating in business related coursework were the least likely to report spending time studying and preparing for class. If one considers simply hours spent studying alone, undergraduates concentrating in business coursework invest less than one hour a day in such pursuits. Given such modest investments in academic activities, it is not surprising that business students show the lowest gains on measures of critical thinking, complex reasoning and written communication. The implication of these troubling patterns, however, goes well beyond these particular types of programs.
Richard Arum/Josipa Roksa Limited Learning on College Campuses
 
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#25
They're great, for people who want to put a minimum amount of work into their education and have the highest chance of getting a retail job.


Richard Arum/Josipa Roksa Limited Learning on College Campuses
So basically a business degree is considered less valuable to employers than someone with a criminal justice/political science/philosophy/etc degree?
 
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#26
So basically a business degree is considered less valuable to employers than someone with a criminal justice/political science/philosophy/etc degree?
The people that write studies like that are academics. Since they are not out in the industry, their opinions do not necessarily match the opinions of the industry (ie the people that matter). In virtually every study of salary data business majors will be found to make more than any of the majors you identified. However, engineers typically make more than business majors.
 

commiecorvus

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#27
The people that write studies like that are academics. Since they are not out in the industry, their opinions do not necessarily match the opinions of the industry (ie the people that matter). In virtually every study of salary data business majors will be found to make more than any of the majors you identified. However, engineers typically make more than business majors.
You are right, people with business degrees are much more likely to hire people who have business degrees.
Sad to say, the starting pay for an ETL is higher in most states then for a starting teacher but which is more important?
 
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#28
Hey StateofTarget with the tuition reimbursement its all about how you word it, I have gotten my accounting/biology covered.
 
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#30
My store is doing this. We have a Food Ave TL who's been with the company for 25 years. She's being asked to step down or find another job. Of course, my STL is an *********************...


Called in about half the team lead team, and said "You have until after Christmas to either step down or find another job. You can go back to school, but you will have to step down. A team lead position may be offered when you complete your degree."

I dislike my STL. It's funny though, since when we were all brought in, him and our ETL-HR who hahaha DOESN'T have a degree and can barely make a grammatically correct sentence sat there and told us this. It's nice.

Love Target.

I'm sure other stores have handled this with more grace, but mine doesn't even know the meaning of the word.
 
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#31
Serious question - why are business degrees looked down on? I always thought they were considered better than liberal arts degrees? (better than history, criminal justice, political science, etc degrees)
Just that the course work is marginally challenging at best, and that its usually common sense type stuff. And unless you are majoring in business with the intent of running your own business, you don't really take a lot from it. I'm going off what my wife told me about classes she would take either with business majors or the actuall business classes themselves.
 
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#32
How many of these people talking down on business students are actually business students or have taken business classes?

I have to say accounting classes are not easy with all of the tax rules and laws.
 
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#33
I am one of those 50 year olds. I didn't finish college, have 4 teenagers 2 in college and 2 to go. I could not afford nor have the inclination to go back at this time in my life. Too tired from work, kids and housework. I have trained in too many ETL's fresh out of colege that didn't know how to write a review or speak to and motivate a team of various ages. The majority of their work ethic was non-existant. Why are they not truthful when they interview these kids at the college fairs and tell them they have to actually roll up their sleeves and work right by us because it is needed and will earn everyones respect. I have had some that thought they would spend most of their time in an office and be supervising not breaking a sweat by pushing a caf or making a bale. My last ETL only made it a few months.

I do understand Targets reasoning but it should not be a hard and fast rule that everyone needs college. Maybe they need to grandfather all the current team leads in instead of a demotion and have the newly hireds require college. Time will tell if this is Target wide or only certain states or districts with these new requirements.
 
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#34
How many of these people talking down on business students are actually business students or have taken business classes?

I have to say accounting classes are not easy with all of the tax rules and laws.
Odds are they have no clue. While it is true that a Business Administration degree can be very basic, things like Finance, Accounting, Marketing, etc. are far from "easy". It also depends on the school in question... there's a big difference between the "degree factory" schools and a typical state school.


As to whomever it was that said they were going to be fired/demoted if they didn't have a degree... that stinks, it's dumb business IMO. However, I have over 100 college credit hours, will have my Bachelors in the spring, military background, etc., etc. and even if I didn't have any of that, I highly doubt they'd hire me as a TL just to fire/demote me in less than 4 months. Initial training time/cost, longer term training/mentoring, waiting for me to "get in to the groove", interview time/process... that's a ton of money, time, and effort just to demote. Who knows, but again, it just doesn't hold water for me.
 
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#35
Dude, I was called in to the ETL-HR's office and straight up told I was going to be shown the door after 4th quarter when whatever the hell new policy they are rolling out is implemented. The only thing that saved my ass was the fact that I had an AA degree, (that they didn't know about) and I had to have my transcript actually mailed to my store. Every TL in my store with out a degree has been told they are being demoted to level 1 after 4th quarter and can either take it or find a new job. At this moment at least 4 TLs at my store that I know of and one Sr TL have already told me they are looking for new jobs at this very moment due to the fact they will not accept being demoted.

And before you start saying it's a cover to get rid of lazy TLs - I received an O - Outstanding on my last two performance reviews. (no, not excellent. Outstanding.) Clearly they like me and are happy with me. I don't know about the other TLs at my store, but I can tell you they are generally looked at positively.

My guess is that you are either at a store in a region that is not having this policy, or your ETL's just don't give a damn and are not going to give you guys a heads up about it like ours did. In which case you will have a very unhappy surprise come the end of 4th quarter.

At my store they gave the specialists a huge advanced notice (like two months ahead of time) that they were becoming regular TMs, but I heard at other stores in my city the specialists were not even told and didn't find out until they saw the new title on their paycheck. So I think the stores can pretty much do whatever they want as far as if they want to tell people these things ahead of time.
Target can do anything they want and get away with it and there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it. That's another reason I stepped down from a team lead in March. That and the three medications I was on because of the stress.

I have been much happier without the pressure of being a team lead. My replacement is seeing the reasons why I demoted. I told her just take a couple of sedatives and wash them down with some alcohol.
 
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#36
I was just wondering, why does target make it mandatory to have a college degree in order to be a ETL? I personally haven't been with target for long but I know of a few co workers who have. One being my TL who does a lot more than is required of him and yet he wouldn't be allowed to be an ETL just because he lacks a piece of paper saying he went to school for 4 more years. I don't want to offend the people who do go to college there are many of them who worked hard to get to college and get through it, but then there are also some who just went because they knew it would be a fun time. Now I'm currently in school and don't have a degree yet, but I work a lot harder than most of my co workers, and stay at work longer than a lot of the leaders I also try to learn as much as possible to improve my store,s scores in the areas I work. I understand target wanting to higher people who have an education as ETL, but not all college grads are as qualified for the job as hard working TLs or TMs who don't lack common sense and the yearning to do more. Why pass over a more experienced and dedicated worker just because they don't have a degree. That doesn't seem right and to me it makes target dumb. Wouldn't it be better to promote someone who knows how stores run and is also a dedicated hard worker. Why can't target have a screening process in order to pick out the bums from the hard working/ dedicated? I worked at target for a little over a year now as a flow team member and as soon as my 90 days were up I was crossed trained in two different area. One area was backroom received very little training but had enough common sense and problem solving to become a good reliable TM for that work center. The second work center was instocks and in less than a month I became the best instock TM the store has, and as of right now I alone am saving instocks which was made red for months because of holiday help/ horrible hires who didn't last for more than a month. Not to mention the fact that the other TMs were doing the training and could care less about it, and on top of that I'm the only on the back of the line for unloading the truck, I don't know about other stores but is only one person suppose to be on the back of the line? And after that I'm in charge of security/ electronics. Yet I do all of that and still I look for more to do. So tell me why I would be passed over for a TL position or higher TL position by someone who doesn't or can't even keep the spill stations filled until there is a major visit and even then they pass it on to a TL. It might bight target back in the ass if they keep hiring people who don't stand as a good role model for their team members.
 
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#37
Thank you I agree with you 100% the college kids don't know about physical labor. I'm 21 now and since I was practically raised by my WWII vet grandpa I know what hard labor is. Honestly some of these fresh out of college kids I know are less intelligent than me because I just recently had to show the AP ETL how to use the magnet portion of the electronics key. When they trained me in electronics I didn't even need them to show me I already knew how it worked. Also why does target think that hiring people with a 4 year degree is a good idea most people with a 4 year degree are not looking for a job at target and if they do it would only be until they find a better job that suits their major.
 
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#38
Thank you I agree with you 100% the college kids don't know about physical labor. I'm 21 now and since I was practically raised by my WWII vet grandpa I know what hard labor is. Honestly some of these fresh out of college kids I know are less intelligent than me because I just recently had to show the AP ETL how to use the magnet portion of the electronics key. When they trained me in electronics I didn't even need them to show me I already knew how it worked. Also why does target think that hiring people with a 4 year degree is a good idea most people with a 4 year degree are not looking for a job at target and if they do it would only be until they find a better job that suits their major.
I think a lot of people are making the mistake of failing to realize that there are different *types* of intelligence. There is emotional intelligence, mechanical intelligence, book smarts, etc.

Ever hear of a mechanical aptitude test? They usually give it to plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. The fact is - some people are better with their hands and with spatial perception than others.

At the same time, some people are better at books smarts than other people.

Furthermore, some people have better emotional intelligence. (in other words, they can relate well to just about anyone and know how to adapt their behavior accordingly)

Just because someone excels in one type of intelligence and sucks at others doesn't mean they are an idiot.... just that they are better at one way of thinking than another.

The fact is, you probably would score really well on a mechanical aptitude test. (being able to figure out the electronics key while your ETL couldn't, for example)

At the same time, I am willing to bet if that ETL studied law in college (just an example) he could probably run circles around you writing/reading legal documents.

This doesn't mean than one person is smarter than the other, only that each has a different kind of intelligence.

The fact is, the higher you go up in management the more "book smart" you need to be. If you are a chief financial officer, for example, it doesn't mean a damn thing if you can't figure out how to use a nail and hammer.... but you damn well better be able to calculate and understand massively complex financial transactions that span multiple nations in the billions of dollars. At the same time, that chief financial officer would probably be fired on day one if he got a job as a carpenter. Likewise, that carpenter would probably be fired on day one if he was in an accounting job.

So, I can understand the Target logic on requiring a college education.... because in theory you are getting people who are "book smart", which is the type of smarts you need higher up in management.

The problem is, Target seems to be recruiting the very bottom of the barrel "book smart" people.... the ones who were lucky to pull any grade higher than a C in college, partied all day, and barely made it through at University of Phoenix or Everest.

Think about it.... most ETLs (dare I say all ETL's) did not attend Harvard, Yale, or even top tier state schools. Even the ones who did attend better schools likely were at the bottom of the class ranking. Certainly they were not graduating with high honors or anything of that nature.

That's the problem with Target and ETLs... they simply can't get the top end of college grads to work retail. The ones from great schools with great grades are leaving school with much better jobs... meaning Target has to settle for the worst ones.
 

sigma7

ETL-All the Things
Joined
Jun 15, 2011
Messages
2,392
#39
I agree with with SoT. Retail is never going to recruit the best and brightest college grads for store management simply because it's retail. I'm sure HQ has a lot of bright minds working there...stores just can't attract that kind of talent. Then stores pay really well to retain talent, but they rarely get great talent in the first place, so then they're stuck with ETLs and STLs (and dare I say some DTLs) that perform just good enough to not get fired. Then those execs are hesitant to quit because they know they'd have a hard time landing a job that pays as well as Target. This is definitely not the case for all execs. There are some who are great; but, by and large I feel comfortable saying that a large percentage of store management has no business being retail managers.
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2011
Messages
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#40
This is another example of why Target is run by idiots. A Team Leader position should not have prerequisites of having a college degree. They don't pay people what someone with a college degree should be earning, the jobs don't require any education that you'd get past the high school level, and as most know that have worked for Target, there is very little promotion from within. Target is a stupid, stupid company.
 

commiecorvus

Former Signing Ninja
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jun 10, 2011
Messages
15,809
#41
Two other problems would come with hiring the smart people.
It would be hard to get them to put up with the BS practices and ridiculous pressure to perform.
Smart people would just go find somewhere else or figure out a better, less painful way to handle things.
And while you might find sociopaths in a group of smart people, most of them know that you can't treat the people under you like cattle and expect results.
 
S

sher

Guest
#43
I don't think it really matters that Target doesn't pay "what someone with a degree should be earning" since there's such a high un/under-employment rate for more recent college grads. No one's making what they thought they would when they decided to go to college. I'd also assume getting a job with Target is less competitive than a lot of other entry level positions out there. Also, I think some people look for jobs that are "beneath them" because they think they have the gusto to move up higher, or they need some (leadership) experience to put on their resume.

I still think it makes more sense to promote from within if there's someone who's capable and willing to do the job than it does to hire someone from outside, though. My store seems to promote from within pretty often.
 
Joined
May 14, 2013
Messages
401
#44
we promote from within a lot at my store. sometimes its a good idea sometimes not.. reading through this thread seems like every store is kind of in the same boat with brand new fresh out of college ETL's that come in and realize its not as easy as it sounds and end up leaving. We have been through countless at my store. I am a TL without a degree but I am actually taking college course now online so I can get away from target. I dont want to be an ETL i have a really bad feeling about the direction the company is going. When I first started I felt like they valued their team and actually cared about them but now it feels ust like some big corporate blah get everything done with no help and no hours or we will coach you out.
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2011
Messages
495
#47
we promote from within a lot at my store. sometimes its a good idea sometimes not.. reading through this thread seems like every store is kind of in the same boat with brand new fresh out of college ETL's that come in and realize its not as easy as it sounds and end up leaving. We have been through countless at my store. I am a TL without a degree but I am actually taking college course now online so I can get away from target. I dont want to be an ETL i have a really bad feeling about the direction the company is going. When I first started I felt like they valued their team and actually cared about them but now it feels ust like some big corporate blah get everything done with no help and no hours or we will coach you out.
Before I left Target I was the only TL with a degree. Everyone else who got one or was working on getting one were doing so to get the hell out of Target. I think it is the same for a lot of those fresh out of college ETLs as well. They take the job to have something while they look for something better. Target no longer does anything to gain the loyalty of its employees so it is a never ending revolving door at every position. Of course if your not planning on staying you do not really care about anything beyond just keeping your job and that is why everybody is cheating to get green scores and nobody cares about the long term damage they are doing.
 
Joined
Dec 7, 2012
Messages
227
#48
Alright, well...I'm late to join in, didn't really read all the posts all thoroughly and carefully as I could have, AND I've been hanging out with the yellow-tailed kangaroo for a bit, so here goes...

FWIW, there seems to be a huge trend at my store to hire/promote ONLY leadership that is A.) Already in possession of a degree, OR B.) Has been with the company since they got their first animal cruelty violation for spray-painting a bullseye on a helpless dog, AND is working toward some flavor of business degree...

Do I think this is ultimately the way to go for all store leadership? No.

Do I think that basic spelling, grammar, punctuation, a little history, geography, etc., are helpful? Maybe even speaking a few languages other than english? YES. Math? YES. ( Mostly so you can help me, because me+math=Uh-ohs... )

Do all college graduates possess these abilities, and if they do, do they regularly demonstrate them? IMHO...NO.

Do I think that things like critical thinking, creativity, etc., are being not only grossly neglected in our schools but also selected out of our workplaces? Hmmmm...

Sincerely,
A Straight Shooter With Upper-management Written All Over Her...Unless they Find Out About my Good Enuf Diploma ;)
 

sigma7

ETL-All the Things
Joined
Jun 15, 2011
Messages
2,392
#50
Critical thinking and creativity aren't stressed nearly enough in our schools. Coming from a business major who recently switched to engineering, I'm challenged to really think and use problem solving skills in my current coursework than I ever was in my business classes. My business classes were almost all memorize and regurgitate, save for my accounting, finance, economics, and stats classes (which is probably why I was an accounting and economics major for a year). And even my econ classes aimed to get you you to understand major concepts rather than really think about anything. Maybe it's just the nature of science and math classes, but I am definitely challenged and required to critically think and figure out ways to solve problems.

Now I'm not saying that all engineering, science, or math majors have the best critical thinking skills and would make great managers. Nor am I saying that all business majors lack critical thinking skills and the ability to manage. I will say that I felt like most of my classes that fell under the school of business within the college of business (strictly classes with BUS prefix) all seemed to teach the same material and required reading and a few papers...not much else. I don't feel like I gained any valuable skills pursuing a business degree, whereas with my engineering coursework I've had to become better at problem solving, will have valuable specialized knowledge when I graduate, and have numerous opportunities to work on and lead teams collaborating on research or special projects.
 
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