Archived Questionable Promotion

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Yeah a little maturity and experience usually helps.

I heard about your STL. That sucks... I think she was going to get fired anyways. I heard the GVP had to walk your Steritech visit this week because the previous ones went so poorly.

Steritech isn't easy when you go E2E with almost no support then take the ETL for remodel leave them working without for months,

Yep all kinds of leaders I have never seen crawling all over the office. We lost an STL a couple years ago under some shady circumstance we knew he was getting fired since we were tanking bad real bad and he just vanished with some dumb story. This one we are pretty sure was getting fired and she quit before that happened, everyone comes into our store thinking its a great store and it is, but it isn't easy to run in any sense. Her game plan was turn the store on its ear and go for DTL and it blew up in her face. And she cleaned out the ETL's that were the squeaky wheels but they were the ones who worked.. Which left the ones who talk a good game but can't work for shit.. And lots of good employees followed those ETL's who quit and transferred out. I would have but distance didn't make sense. So here we are a couple weeks before black Friday and no STL.. I can only hope that the next one is better than this one, cause she was better than the waste of space that she replaced.
 
Ok, time for a rant.

Tenure does not equal leadership. I've seen people who are amazing team members who I am very, very lucky to work with. They work hard every day and they know the job better than anyone else. If there is a question, these team members know the answer better than the team leaders, certainly better than any ETLs or STL or anyone outside the store. They are a huge reason why their workcenter runs so well. Great attendance, too. And passion for their job.

But that doesn't mean they'll be a good leader. (This also doesn't mean they'll be a bad leader either, just saying.) They might have a shit attitude. Or maybe they've peaked. They just don't have the leadership skills. And while I'd love to see them get a promotion, I also do not want to see them have a single team member under them. Maybe it's a bad attitude, and that bad attitude could be caused by getting passed over for a promotion in the past. Or maybe they just don't see the big picture - sure they know their workcenter well, but they don't see how it fits in the store.

Someone who has worked for Target for years could be an integral part of their store and be literally better than anyone else at their job, but that doesn't mean they'd be good at a different type of job. But someone who has worked for Target for a month could show some leadership skills and get fast-tracked to a promotion.

On a related note, this is why it's completely reasonable to hire an ETL who has never worked for Target before - sure, you're going to be answering the most basic questions from them and teaching them how to use a register or even a god damn walkie, but they weren't hired because they already knew your job, they got hired because the STL/DTL thinks they have good leadership skills. And maybe it won't work out, but neither do 80% of the team members either, so I don't know the right answer. What I do know is that leadership skills are very, very different from just being able to learn your job and work hard.
 
Ok, time for a rant.

Tenure does not equal leadership. I've seen people who are amazing team members who I am very, very lucky to work with. They work hard every day and they know the job better than anyone else. If there is a question, these team members know the answer better than the team leaders, certainly better than any ETLs or STL or anyone outside the store. They are a huge reason why their workcenter runs so well. Great attendance, too. And passion for their job.

But that doesn't mean they'll be a good leader. (This also doesn't mean they'll be a bad leader either, just saying.) They might have a shit attitude. Or maybe they've peaked. They just don't have the leadership skills. And while I'd love to see them get a promotion, I also do not want to see them have a single team member under them. Maybe it's a bad attitude, and that bad attitude could be caused by getting passed over for a promotion in the past. Or maybe they just don't see the big picture - sure they know their workcenter well, but they don't see how it fits in the store.

Someone who has worked for Target for years could be an integral part of their store and be literally better than anyone else at their job, but that doesn't mean they'd be good at a different type of job. But someone who has worked for Target for a month could show some leadership skills and get fast-tracked to a promotion.

On a related note, this is why it's completely reasonable to hire an ETL who has never worked for Target before - sure, you're going to be answering the most basic questions from them and teaching them how to use a register or even a god damn walkie, but they weren't hired because they already knew your job, they got hired because the STL/DTL thinks they have good leadership skills. And maybe it won't work out, but neither do 80% of the team members either, so I don't know the right answer. What I do know is that leadership skills are very, very different from just being able to learn your job and work hard.
Thank you for this rant. Truer words haven’t been spoken by anyone in this thread, including me.
 
Ok, time for a rant.

Tenure does not equal leadership. I've seen people who are amazing team members who I am very, very lucky to work with. They work hard every day and they know the job better than anyone else. If there is a question, these team members know the answer better than the team leaders, certainly better than any ETLs or STL or anyone outside the store. They are a huge reason why their workcenter runs so well. Great attendance, too. And passion for their job.

But that doesn't mean they'll be a good leader. (This also doesn't mean they'll be a bad leader either, just saying.) They might have a shit attitude. Or maybe they've peaked. They just don't have the leadership skills. And while I'd love to see them get a promotion, I also do not want to see them have a single team member under them. Maybe it's a bad attitude, and that bad attitude could be caused by getting passed over for a promotion in the past. Or maybe they just don't see the big picture - sure they know their workcenter well, but they don't see how it fits in the store.

Someone who has worked for Target for years could be an integral part of their store and be literally better than anyone else at their job, but that doesn't mean they'd be good at a different type of job. But someone who has worked for Target for a month could show some leadership skills and get fast-tracked to a promotion.

On a related note, this is why it's completely reasonable to hire an ETL who has never worked for Target before - sure, you're going to be answering the most basic questions from them and teaching them how to use a register or even a god damn walkie, but they weren't hired because they already knew your job, they got hired because the STL/DTL thinks they have good leadership skills. And maybe it won't work out, but neither do 80% of the team members either, so I don't know the right answer. What I do know is that leadership skills are very, very different from just being able to learn your job and work hard.
This!
First- on the STLs “quitting” before they get fired, I guarantee you they received a package.

Second- in my last position I started off with a boss who I absolutely loved working with. She was supportive, helpful, honest but nice, encouraging. She was a GREAT leader, however I’m starting to think she sucked st her job. She randomly demoted herself to an STL. I think she got lucky and her boss liked her so much that she gave her an option to change positions or “quit”. My boss that replaced her was/ is beyond awful. Repulsive actually. In the 10 years I worked for the company I’ve never ever dealt with anybody like her. Sabotaging, the most unsupportive boss, manipulative, sneaky, just awful. Dtl couldn’t Stand her, STLs couldn’t stand her. But, she was really good at her job. She knew her shit and had great ideas and plans. They were just impossible to implement because of her delivery. Great at her job awful awful leader. Ever since I left people in my district and group have been dropping like flies and i wouldn’t doubt it has anything to do with her.
 
Ok, time for a rant.


On a related note, this is why it's completely reasonable to hire an ETL who has never worked for Target before - sure, you're going to be answering the most basic questions from them and teaching them how to use a register or even a god damn walkie, but they weren't hired because they already knew your job, they got hired because the STL/DTL thinks they have good leadership skills. And maybe it won't work out, but neither do 80% of the team members either, so I don't know the right answer. What I do know is that leadership skills are very, very different from just being able to learn your job and work hard.
Baloney. Good leadership comes from knowing how to do the job, to a certain extent, that you’ll be directing your subordinates to do. I’ve had ETLs before that didn’t even know the basics of retail and only got hired because of the super vague “leadership skills”.
Had to hold their hand the entire time with pretty much everything, until I taught them how to do their job AND how to tell me to do mine. Leadership is a skill, yes I will agree to that, but it’s not a special talent that cannot be learned. You can take a seasoned TM and teach them leadership easily. Refusing to even attempt to do that based upon not having “leadership” experience is a cop-out.

EDIT: If I ran a business, I would rather hire a manager who knows the ins and outs of the job vs. someone who has “leadership” experience but absolutely no clue how to do the job at hand. A good leader does not need to be your best friend.
 
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This!
First- on the STLs “quitting” before they get fired, I guarantee you they received a package.

I have no doubt. I do have a doubt though since they did help move this one from California to the PNW.. And its been maybe just maybe a year.. I know when my husband and I moved for a job there were strings attached to that help that we had to stay for a year minimum in order to not pay back all the moving money. Fired was different but quitting that had strings.. But then again if someone wants rid of you, things like that tend not to be bothered with..

I liked her as a person, but as a leader she didn't listen to the store which needs some assholes in order to keep pushing the slackers she cleaned out most of the assholes and the store tanked from there. Add in E2E and our market which is hard we got money in my area but its also fickle and they won't put up with this 4am bullshit and they are not having it. So sales are down this SFS is helping but I think it came a day late and dollar short for her..
 
Baloney. Good leadership comes from knowing how to do the job, to a certain extent, that you’ll be directing your subordinates to do. I’ve had ETLs before that didn’t even know the basics of retail and only got hired because of the super vague “leadership skills”.
Had to hold their hand the entire time with pretty much everything, until I taught them how to do their job AND how to tell me to do mine. Leadership is a skill, yes I will agree to that, but it’s not a special talent that cannot be learned. You can take a seasoned TM and teach them leadership easily. Refusing to even attempt to do that based upon not having “leadership” experience is a cop-out.

EDIT: If I ran a business, I would rather hire a manager who knows the ins and outs of the job vs. someone who has “leadership” experience but absolutely no clue how to do the job at hand. A good leader does not need to be your best friend.

I'm a proponent that Leadership is a quality that a person has "naturally". So, I respectfully disagree with your statement above in RED.....You can't teach true Leadership...... you can teach someone the "actions" of leading a Team, etc, but not "genuine" Leadership. I have some awesome TMs working with me (formerly "for" me) that are outstanding at their jobs..... great at completing their workload. They are our Trainers/Mentors for teaching others their craft/job. But they are not Leaders. They can't see the big picture; they just see the task/efficiency. Forest beyond the trees, so to speak. On the flip-side, We have a few TMs (maybe not as skillful as others) that "get it"...... they "naturally step-up" and Lead in certain situations. They realize "someone" has to rise to the occasion..... without being told (by another Leader). They "naturally" LEAD the Team.

I think we all see the new ETL Interns struggle w/ this. Their "degree" tells them they should be a Leader. They go thru the motions/actions of Leading; but they are internally "spinning" with all the responsibilities that go w/ Leading a Team, Leading a department, and Leading the store (LOD shifts). Will they learn it w/ time???? Maybe? If they are a true Leader, it'll happen.... they'll be determined to figure it out. If not..... they will continue to spin, or hide in the office ( you know them) or they eventually quit.
Perfect scenario is obviously a combination of skill, will and the innate characteristic to Lead. We should all be so lucky.
 
Baloney. Good leadership comes from knowing how to do the job, to a certain extent, that you’ll be directing your subordinates to do. I’ve had ETLs before that didn’t even know the basics of retail and only got hired because of the super vague “leadership skills”.
Had to hold their hand the entire time with pretty much everything, until I taught them how to do their job AND how to tell me to do mine. Leadership is a skill, yes I will agree to that, but it’s not a special talent that cannot be learned. You can take a seasoned TM and teach them leadership easily. Refusing to even attempt to do that based upon not having “leadership” experience is a cop-out.

EDIT: If I ran a business, I would rather hire a manager who knows the ins and outs of the job vs. someone who has “leadership” experience but absolutely no clue how to do the job at hand. A good leader does not need to be your best friend.
If I ran a business, I would rather hire a manager who is a good leader than one who knows the ins and outs of the job. If that leader can get 10% more productivity out of 10 TMs (usually because they don't hold your hand or encourage bad habits because "that's how we've always done it"), that's worth more to me than a manager that is more productive in their own work. Getting 10% more out of 10 TMs adds up more than getting an extra 50% out of yourself.
 
And there's a big difference between bosses and leaders. Fortunately we have more leaders at my store, but there are a few bosses. Sure, both can get people to do the work, but it's the bosses that lose more tms. Anyone can be a boss. Leaders are either born or deliberately learn the role because they know it's valuable.
 
If I ran a business, I would rather hire a manager who is a good leader than one who knows the ins and outs of the job. If that leader can get 10% more productivity out of 10 TMs (usually because they don't hold your hand or encourage bad habits because "that's how we've always done it"), that's worth more to me than a manager that is more productive in their own work. Getting 10% more out of 10 TMs adds up more than getting an extra 50% out of yourself.
How would he get more productivity out of the TMs if he doesn’t know how the job works?
The good leadership skills thing...explain to me how you actually measure that.
I’d want to know, if I brought a manager in for an interview, how they were able to simply processes throughout their department and boost sales.
I’d be more likely to grant an interview to the TM who’s shown that they can do their job correctly,effectively, efficiently, and never had any complaints by anyone else. Vs granting an interview to someone who was a good leader of a Theater Lighting crew.

Your argument here sounds like you can put any Joe into a leadership position, provided he’s a good leader. You CANNOT be an effective leader if you don’t know what job your subordinates are doing. How will they be able to rely on you if you cannot assist them in their role?

When I call for the ETL-GE of my store for a front end issue, I shouldn’t have to then call a GSA because the ETL doesn’t know the answer. That’s not an effective leader, that’s a paper pusher. How is that ETL going to effectively lead when he only knows the basics.

How is an ETL AP going to effectively lead when he’s afraid of making apps? How is an ETL-SF going to lead when they don’t understand planos? How is a police Sgt. going lead his shift if he doesn’t know police work?
 
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How is that ETL going to effectively lead when he only knows the basics.

A tm could be a good leader, but knowing the jobs tms do is only an aspect of leadership. If an etl comes in having never worked at Target or in any management position (which is most of the time as far as I can tell - they like them green) they always come in trained to some degree. A question about a specific detail of a tms job can be answered usually by another tm. But retail is about results and results come from tms who feel like they are appreciated, valued and trusted. Leaders inspire people to do their jobs well. Bosses micromanage and drive people crazy. A good leader doesn't need to know how to do everything to lead well. It could be helpful, but a good team should be capable of helping each other so that the leader isn't bogged down in minutia and is free to work on the bigger things the job entails. I get what you're saying but it doesn't always follow that an experienced tm would be better than a green etl, in my experience.
 
I have no doubt. I do have a doubt though since they did help move this one from California to the PNW.. And its been maybe just maybe a year.. I know when my husband and I moved for a job there were strings attached to that help that we had to stay for a year minimum in order to not pay back all the moving money. Fired was different but quitting that had strings.. But then again if someone wants rid of you, things like that tend not to be bothered with..

I liked her as a person, but as a leader she didn't listen to the store which needs some assholes in order to keep pushing the slackers she cleaned out most of the assholes and the store tanked from there. Add in E2E and our market which is hard we got money in my area but its also fickle and they won't put up with this 4am bullshit and they are not having it. So sales are down this SFS is helping but I think it came a day late and dollar short for her..
Oh yes, Target relocated me 2 times. You have to be with the company for 18months before you quit or you have to pay them a ton of money. You can be fired whenever though. If it was close to her 18 months she still very well might have gotten a package. If it was only a year she definitely got fired without one which is stupid on Targets part for so many reasons I won’t get into. She would have had to have been absolutely awful for it to be worth it for them to fire her before her 18 months
 
Your argument here sounds like you can put any Joe into a leadership position, provided he’s a good leader. You CANNOT be an effective leader if you don’t know what job your subordinates are doing. How will they be able to rely on you if you cannot assist them in their role?


I'm a VM(TL), no secret about that. I came to this company knowing a shit-ton about Visual Merchandising; and was excited to share my knowledge w/ the Team. But what I didn't know was "Target" and the SOP of each area. So, my first few weeks/months I spent side-by-side w/ the Team asking them to show me what they do best ! They were eager to show me what they do in their role. So, as they shared their roles w/ me; I shared my role and vision w/ them. I led as I learned. I was not "bossy" (Thanks, SitSpotSit for pointing out the negativity in that! :)), I was empowering them. I respected them. I encouraged them. I recognized them verbally and thru YouCards. I got in the "trenches" w/ them. They were proud. I was honored that they connected w/ me and trusted me. Even though I was "green" to Target; the Team quickly treated me as their Leader. And, while I don't technically "lead" the Team now...... we still have a great unity of trust and collaboration to make things better.

Eh..... now I'm starting to sound sappy and corny. You get the point, right? Done and done.

 
A tm could be a good leader, but knowing the jobs tms do is only an aspect of leadership. If an etl comes in having never worked at Target or in any management position (which is most of the time as far as I can tell - they like them green) they always come in trained to some degree. A question about a specific detail of a tms job can be answered usually by another tm. But retail is about results and results come from tms who feel like they are appreciated, valued and trusted. Leaders inspire people to do their jobs well. Bosses micromanage and drive people crazy. A good leader doesn't need to know how to do everything to lead well. It could be helpful, but a good team should be capable of helping each other so that the leader isn't bogged down in minutia and is free to work on the bigger things the job entails. I get what you're saying but it doesn't always follow that an experienced tm would be better than a green etl, in my experience.

Love, love, love and support everything you're saying !!! Spot on !!!
 
Oh yes, Target relocated me 2 times. You have to be with the company for 18months before you quit or you have to pay them a ton of money. You can be fired whenever though. If it was close to her 18 months she still very well might have gotten a package. If it was only a year she definitely got fired without one which is stupid on Targets part for so many reasons I won’t get into. She would have had to have been absolutely awful for it to be worth it for them to fire her before her 18 months

She was close maybe just over a year if that. I think it was just after black Friday or real close when she came on board. I think she negotiated her way out. Cause she actually gave notice, the STL we know was fired there was nothing he just disappeared.
 
She was close maybe just over a year if that. I think it was just after black Friday or real close when she came on board. I think she negotiated her way out. Cause she actually gave notice, the STL we know was fired there was nothing he just disappeared.

Yeah and there are some good stls on the bench in the district. I hope you guys get a good one our new stl has never been in a store so they're one of those unrealistic types
 
Your argument here sounds like you can put any Joe into a leadership position, provided he’s a good leader. You CANNOT be an effective leader if you don’t know what job your subordinates are doing. How will they be able to rely on you if you cannot assist them in their role?

When I call for the ETL-GE of my store for a front end issue, I shouldn’t have to then call a GSA because the ETL doesn’t know the answer. That’s not an effective leader, that’s a paper pusher. How is that ETL going to effectively lead when he only knows the basics.

How is an ETL AP going to effectively lead when he’s afraid of making apps? How is an ETL-SF going to lead when they don’t understand planos? How is a police Sgt. going lead his shift if he doesn’t know police work?
My argument is that most TMs aren't qualified for leadership positions, and that there are outside candidates who are better fits for the job. I've seen tons of TMs who think they should be TLs, but they shouldn't. They could do the TM job, but they wouldn't be able to handle the stress of actually having a team and they wouldn't be good at leading that team because they would either be too nice (people would walk all over them) or too mean (turnover would be insane). I guess that's my main point in this whole thing, and I'll admit I'm probably taking an extreme position to try to prove a point, whereas what I really think is more of a middle-ground.

ETL-GE, that's a great example. For the most part, GSAs/GSTLs/service desk TMs will know the policies. If the guest is arguing about something, a good leader will pretty much just need to say "what this team member said is true, we can't do that". The ETL doesn't have to know shit.

But lets take another example - a TM doesn't know something about a process and asks for help. If the ETL just tells the TM what to do, that's not leading. It helps, sure, but the TM gains almost nothing out of it. What would help would be to ask that TM "What do you think we should do?" and try to have them come up with a solution, which teaches that TM how to think critically. The ETL could also go look up the answer, and/or teach the TM how to go look up the answer. Neither of these two possible answers require ANY knowledge about the job, but BOTH of them help develop a TM. That's being a leader.

Keeping with the ETL-GE, lets look at REDcards because they are such a huge focus. An ETL-GE doesn't have to be great at getting RCs to make their store great at it, but sure it does help. They aren't going to spend much (any?) time on the register. They need to teach the GSTLs/GSAs how to hold the cashiers accountable for it. The ETL can ask what has worked in the past, what hasn't worked, which cashiers are good at it and what they do to be good at it... all kinds of questions without knowing shit about it. Then they can get the GSTLs to follow up with the cashiers who aren't good at it. Again, the ETL knows jack shit about this, and the GSTLs might not even be good at getting RCs, but they can still get better results just by being good leaders.

I work in Starbucks. If a TM asks me a question, I'm going to know the answer. I've been doing it too long. But telling them the helps them with this one question and that's it. If I teach them how to find the answer, they'll become a better TM. Almost everything I know about Starbucks was taught to me by the many different resources we have right in front of us (tons of manuals, charts, recipe cards, etc). Knowing the answer is nice, but knowing where to find the answer is more important because it'll teach me how to find the answer for the next question I have.

With your ETL-AP example, I have to concede. Making apprehensions is an important part of that position. But that seems unlike most ETL positions for several reasons. It is them putting themselves in danger (other team members are literally told to move out of the way if someone is stealing something lol). And ETL-AP is a glorified TPS - they don't really have a team under them other than a person or 2 in most stores. They are the one doing the work. It's hardly a leadership position, except for when they are LOD.

An ETL-SF can quickly learn about planos... I feel like part of your argument seems to be that these leaders won't be good at their job in their first week. I've seen TLs who have been in their exact position for years and still don't know how to lead - they were great TMs and got promoted, but are terrible leaders and their workcenters suffer because of it. An ETL-SF can learn SF/LOG stuff. I was a Sr Starbucks TL and knew jack shit about anything regarding logistics when I first got promoted, but pretty much everyone thought I was a better leader than them. All I did was ask them what they needed from me and followed through. When they had a question, I asked them what they or their TL/ETL would do. I knew nothing, but the problems got solved and the work got done. And if they got behind, I asked them how I could help - they gave me a simple task so they could work on the harder ones that require more training.
 
Wow...guess I’m in the minority then. Apparently hard work doesn’t pay off, as the apparent consensus is years of hard work and doing a good job won’t entail a promotion. You’ll just loose the spot to a job grad who doesn’t know shit.
 
And after I wrote that whole thing, I want to reiterate something several other people have pointed out - recognition and appreciation! Honestly that's all I look for in an ETL at this point. I know my job and I know how to lead. I want to be appreciated! I'll keep busting my ass for them as long as they thank me for it - sometimes that means more than the paycheck because it makes me look forward to coming to work.
 
That's correct - working hard does not get you a promotion. Being good at your job means you are good at your job. It does not mean you are good at your boss' job. It is certainly correlated, though.
That’s my point here. Just because your good at leadership, does not mean your good for any leadership position (which is what seems like is being argued to me here). Your team is going to have zero respect for a “leader” if they cannot even do the basics. A leader cannot effectively run the department based solely upon numbers. Take the RedCard example. How is a leader going to get more RedCards out of his department if he doesn’t even know how to get one himself? How is he going to correct a TMs pitch, when he couldn’t even sell one himself?

I’m a cashier, brand new, almost got a guest to sign up for a RedCard but I forgot how to process it. I flag over the ETL and he comes across just as baffled as I do. Yet the GSA shows up, completes the transaction and has the guest leaving happy. Then tells the cashier, “this is the way to do it”. Then has to show her highly paid, executive team leader the same.

Who’s the more effective leader there?
 
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