Archived Is This Allowed @ Target?

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FlowChick

Expect The Unexpected
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I mean the way they handled it. Because people are always going on about police brutality and was wondering if this is even legal.
 

Wizard89

ETL-AP
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I love when this video re-appears on several sites. These guys are complete assholes, let me tell you the aftermath of this, since I use the video in my store as training. Don't bother with the comment section or whatever.

1) Those AP people "saw him steal a pen" and then proceeded to follow him into the parking lot. Target can't follow beyond the red balls AND in most stores, the item the person stole has to be above $20 to $50 to be worth anyone's time.

2) The AP people DID NOT ANNOUNCE THEMSELVES. They legit just walked up and put hands on the guy. The guy then reacted by stabbing one of them because he thought he was getting mugged.(Defense he used) Target will ALWAYS announce themselves and if there is a weapon present, back down to avoid any injuries to themselves or other people.

3) They @#$*ing tackled that guy to the ground and handcuffed him. Then they beat him. ..... Target wouldn't do that...nor should any store. @#$*ing Police wont do that (well the good police wont). If I remember correctly, this guy has a multimillion dollar lawsuit against Walmart for a slew of things, and these two guys were either going or are in jail. Everything I do and other AP people do have a strict code because if we stray out of this "Merchant's Law Code" the person we are going to grab could interpret it as:

- Harassment in the 2nd Degree
- Assault and Battery (Possible aggravated if the AP person has a pocket knife or box cutter on them)
- Libel and Slander (Civil defamation suits)
- Defamation of character (Falsely accused of a crime)
- Kidnapping
- False Imprisonment

And a bunch of other really minor things. If I grab someone who stole a pen in the parking lot and then JUST handcuffed them. Without announcing myself and my intentions. I would be so @$#*ed by even the worst lawyer.
 

oath2order

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@Wizard89 your store allows the red balls outside the store as a limit? My store has double doors and once they leave through the second set of doors, nobody can get them.
 
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@Wizard89 your store allows the red balls outside the store as a limit? My store has double doors and once they leave through the second set of doors, nobody can get them.

My store uses the red balls as a limit. My TPS explained it as because we only have one set of doors. (2 entrances, no double doors). And only because we have 2 cameras watching each exit up to the red balls.
 

Dr Laytex

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@Dr Laytex , my ETL-AP nearly had a heart attack when she saw 2 kids playing Wipeout with the red balls. Broke Usain Bolt's record coming out of AP office, across the checklanes, and out of the store. Where was the mom? At another store in the complex area meeting a friend for coffee.
 
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Does your store not have red cement balls out front by the entrances? They're target's equivalent of the cement posts you see outside establishments that stop cars from driving into the place.

A picture (not my store):
 
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oath2order

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Red balls?



@Dr Laytex , my ETL-AP nearly had a heart attack when she saw 2 kids playing Wipeout with the red balls. Broke Usain Bolt's record coming out of AP office, across the checklanes, and out of the store. Where was the mom? At another store in the complex area meeting a friend for coffee.

oh dear christ I can't imagine how my ETL-AP would react.

She'd probably drag the kids back to the mother.
 

Kartman

MasterBlaster (User has passed away)
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No red balls at my store - just concrete posts.
 
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No red balls and no posts at my store. Doesn't fit the requirements of the shopping center.
 
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I mean if target told the guy they were security and the guy tried to fight , we are tried to try to physically stop them and put them in handcuffs. But nothing like this video....
 

Nauzhror

Service Advocate, Formerly GSA
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I've followed guests into the parking lot and am not AP. Our APTL was super happy that the last time we jad a guy walk out with a Wii I followed him out and got his license plate with my phone's camera. He was arrested later that night.
 

RhettB

I've forgotten more than many young ETLs know.
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Does your store not have red cement balls out front by the entrances? They're target's equivalent of the cement posts you see outside establishments that stop cars from driving into the place.

A picture (not my store):


Had our snow plow vendor take one of these out a few years ago. Id hate to see what he did to his suspension.
 

commiecorvus

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Does your store not have red cement balls out front by the entrances? They're target's equivalent of the cement posts you see outside establishments that stop cars from driving into the place.

A picture (not my store):

I remember one year the brilliant folks in marketing had us put covers on them to make them look like beach balls.
That lasted for about a day until a guest tried to kick one and broke their toe.
 

Wizard89

ETL-AP
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Wizard89 Your experience is considerably different from my observations and comments over the years on Target security. The AP Manual and various Directives set out a lot of things that simply are not followed and there is a very long thread on this site about a Pasadena Target employee and it is clear no consideration was given to your own Target security regulations in how that was handled.

The internet (You Tube) is full of videos of your fellow AP members grabbing, wrestling and attempting to subdue alleged shoplifters. I have links to them on my anti-Target site http://targetfiling.blogspot.com/.

Several years ago another poster claiming to be in AP said the AP Manual was only regarded by security in the stores as 'guidelines', the inference was that they could do whatever they wanted.

Take a look at the referenced Break Room site about Mr. Gentles and post on that what you think of how that matter was handled and if it was within your corporate AP guidelines or if it was (as I believe) totally out of bounds.

I'm aware that not every Target member follows the Directives. Believe you and me, I've witnessed when things get out of hand. I work in the city, I have to get hands on. Do people bring knives, brass knuckles, .22 pistol's to the party? Yes. Does it scare me to death when I attempt a app and someone brings out a weapon? Yes. Now I've been around the block awhile and realize that this is part of the job, a job that I get compensated well for. However, it can get to you. I've seen a season AP become jaded, hostile, and just plain wrong in their time. They start taking everything out on the shoplifter (like the video). They start secretly carrying weapons with the "i'll get them first" mentality.

Are there just plain assholes that work for Target AP? Yes. Did some of them take a million civil service exams to be police but never pass? And now this is all they have, so they treat each shoplifter like a terrorist from 24? Yes. Each Store, District, Region is going to be different. I can only hope that the AP I work work with on a day to day basis will keep a level head.

***

As far as the Mr. Gentles story. My heart does go out to the family. However, I am not fully versed in what happened. Was the AP office in the back of the store? And to process the person did they have to bring them to the front? If so, they will have to go through the store. Either way, the situation should have been different.
 
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oath2order

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I remember one year the brilliant folks in marketing had us put covers on them to make them look like beach balls.
That lasted for about a day until a guest tried to kick one and broke their toe.

did you work at my store because I was literally told the same story today by a coworker.

Wizard89 Your experience is considerably different from my observations and comments over the years on Target security.

yes obviously Wizard89's experience is going to be different because Wizard89 works for the company for AP and you just observe. In addition, you have only observed the news, and the various bits of information that you've gotten from some people. I highly doubt these people work with Wizard just based on sheer probability, so I therefore have to remind you:

ALL STORES ARE NOT THE SAME.

Obviously his experience will be different than yours.
 

commiecorvus

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did you work at my store because I was literally told the same story today by a coworker.

.

It didn't actually happen at my store.
We got an email telling us to take off the covers and the SrTL told me about the store where the guest broke their toe.
 

oath2order

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It didn't actually happen at my store.
We got an email telling us to take off the covers and the SrTL told me about the store where the guest broke their toe.

at our store it was a kid who tried to kick it. no idea on broken toe bit
 
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I've followed guests into the parking lot and am not AP. Our APTL was super happy that the last time we jad a guy walk out with a Wii I followed him out and got his license plate with my phone's camera. He was arrested later that night.
why are you playing cop? Sounds like a liability waiting to happen besides why play cop for a corp that doesnt value employees as has been showed many times
 
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Getting a pic of a license plate number I would think would be perfectly fine. Our AP encourages us to get as much detail as possible, physical description, time, what's being stolen, and if possible car description and plate.

Now if he stopped the guy on his own it would be a completely different story.
 

Wizard89

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When I was new I asked a Cart Attendant to grab a plate of a van that was parked at the edge of the parking lot. The suspect was inside the store and knew my face so I was watching from a camera. Unfortunately the PTZ couldn't reach the vehicle and I couldn't just leave the store to grab it. I wanted the plate so I could file on the guy, since he had used weapons before. The Cart attendant went out like I asked and pulled out his iPhone and took a pic of the plate, pretty standard stuff. What wasn't standard was the suspects partner in the vehicle, who I or the CA didn't see.

I probably broke a record running out to that parking lot, because that suspects partner got out of that vehicle with a metal baseball bat. I was able to cool down the situation by lying and telling the man with the bat that our CA was "special" and "likes collecting pictures of license plates". Thank God most thieves aren't intelligent.

Since then, I've never once asked anyone in my store to do anything more then observe a guest and report back to me. The CA actually applied to become a TPS in my store and is now a APTL a few states away. To this day, states that the moment in the parking lot really made him love AP.
 
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Things get out of hand easily in all retail environments. Some years back in Boynton Beach, Fl a mentally challenged young man stole some very minor item and employees there who liked to 'bust shoplifters' chased him down and piled on him in the parking lot. The man couldn't breathe and died. Things get out of hand everywhere, but it comes down to leadership at whatever store you are at.

In Pasadena T-0883 it seems that Anthony Mims, the Pasadena store team leader, and Charles Godinez, the store's executive team leader for asset protection were doing their own thing, as my grandfather liked to say "flying by the seat of their pants".

Target is now stuck with this stupidity on the part of their store leadership and it was made worse by the Pasadena PD who, just from press accounts, seemed to be taking their instructions from Target.

The boiler plate response from T is disappointing, but both T and Wally World have adopted the generic policy of going to the mattresses in any civil suits and their ideas are that if you want to sue we will make it so long and hard a job for you that you will give up and go away, and even if you don't our policy will make other lawyers reluctant to sue us, and I am sure a lot of them do give up or have a hard time finding a lawyer that will represent them. Those that end up with a judgement will find that both stores will just appeal and add another couple of years to the process.


Many years ago, when J C Penney was an actual retail chain, they had a policy of settling immediately with the intent to make sure that they never had any bad publicity hitting the press. Probably they got scammed a lot but I don't recall ever hearing that some mother was suing JCP for their sons death. Perhaps the correct course of action is somewhere in the middle of these extremes.

Exactly why team members shouldnt be playing cop. People are all different and they can react differently to being caught redhanded or if they are innocent. I know I wouldnt like anyone taking pics of my license plate and would want to beat up anyone that did.
 
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I gotta ask...

Is getting a actual pic of the license plate necessary? Couldn't one just write it down?
 
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